Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	As Martini Would Say
Date:	7/22/2020 12:55:51 PM

To paraphrase Martini...One more despicable and cold hearted act on the part of Republicans…… the bastards can’t get their act together so good patriotic Americans will suffer.

"The process could extend into August, meaning a loss of emergency aid for 20 million Americans. A major intraparty rift widened between the White House and Senate Republicans on Tuesday as they stumbled to formulate a unified coronavirus budget plan, lacking agreement on policy goals, budget parameters, or even deadlines."

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	As Martini Would Say
Date:	7/22/2020 1:01:59 PM

Uh huh.....like there is an agreement with Democrats (who control the House by the way and can pass whatever they want).  Let them pass a law and start the negotiations with the Senate and the WH.  By the way, I don't recall you whining when Pelosi and Shumer blocked the original bill. 

This is what happens when you get your fake news from sources aligned with the Democrats.   It just makes you come off as silly and uninformed.

Name:	CRD -	Reply
Subject:	As Martini Would Say
Date:	7/22/2020 2:23:22 PM

I don't want my children and grandchildren saddled with another trillion dollars of debt, how about you Fish?  How about a simple, innovative extended payroll tax holiday for those of us who are actually working through this.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	As Martini Would Say
Date:	7/22/2020 2:33:33 PM

Goofy is a Keynsian......who cares about the debt, we'll all be dead.  Payroll tax holiday is a great idea as it helps individuals and businesses.  Problem is Democrats want to decide who gets what, where and when and only if they kneel in fealty.  Giving money to those of us keeping the economy going is anathema to them.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Dim dimokraps.....
Date:	7/22/2020 3:46:04 PM

Dim dimokraps only want da cash to go to da voters....da welfare herd.  Ya know...keep ‘em down on da plantation!

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Dim dimokraps.....
Date:	7/22/2020 3:51:10 PM

Biden 2020 says Goofy

https://www.infowars.com/breaking-joe-biden-now-criminal-suspect-in-ukraine/

Name:	phil -	Reply
Subject:	Dim dimokraps.....
Date:	7/22/2020 4:09:13 PM

https://justthenews.com/government/former-undercover-fbi-informant-says-obama-and-others-turned-their-back-our-country

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	As Martini Would Say
Date:	7/22/2020 5:04:03 PM (updated 7/22/2020 5:14:19 PM)

"Sources even told Fox News that Trump would like to eventually make the payroll tax cut permanent and fund Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance from general revenues — moves that could further swell the deficit. Democrats have pushed back on these calls as lawmakers craft new legislation."

Those with jobs don't need the relief...it needs to go to those without jobs during the pandemic to pay rent and buy food. Many on the right in the senate don't want a payroll tax cut. The truth is CRD is showing his greed wanting a payroll tax cut. Cuts should go to those with incomes of $40,000 or less or a family  at $75,000 or less. Payroll cut sure doesn't help retirees or unemployed who need it the most. It only helps those who are employed. That's pure greed.

The fact is, I won't qualify for any relief but I feel for those in need. Those business owners who received PPP money certainly weren't too concerned for the deficit.

Money Bags Martini and Cashman CRD don't need relief.

And no, I don't like deficits. When the economy impoves, and it will, raise taxes  and adjust corporate taxes until we pay down the deficit incurred during the pendemic. I have no issue wth a deficit during this current slump...that is as it should be.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade
Date:	7/22/2020 5:15:53 PM (updated 7/22/2020 5:20:23 PM)

Typical ignorant class warfare.  Goofy, unlike income taxes every single employee pays payroll taxes from the lowest of the low to the highest earners.  But it maxes out at around $137K per year so those who make more than that stop paying FICA taxes when they reach the max.  And the poorest pay exactly the same amount of tax on their earnings as someone making $1M per year up to whatever they earn.  So some construction worker that makes $25K per year pays exactly the same FICA on that $25K as the guy that makes $200K per year.  Companies pay the other half for W-2 employees.  And self employed have to pay the entire amount (~14%).  So this actually puts more money on a percentage basis in the pockets of the lowest earners and they will presumably spend that money which will stimulate the economy.  And it frees up companies with employees to hire more with the cash they are saving.  FICA is literally the most regressive tax in our system.  But you probably never knew any of that because you are economically illiterate.

The whole idea of stimulus is to get more money into the economy and this would be an excellent way to do so.  But Democrats would prefer to give the money to unions and others so it can be laundered back to them in the form of campaign contributions.  Republicans actually want to get the money into the hands of hard working Americans.

And on top of the actual economics here is another factoid.  This is not being suggested in lieu of continuing additional unemployment benefits.  But what the Republicans are proposing is the very common sense idea that people should not earn more on unemployment than they earned when they were working.  That is a perverse disincentive to get back to work which is what the economy needs......and of course Democrats oppose this because they don't want the economy to get better and they do want to create more dependency on govt.

Goofy, I keep telling you to think before you post so you don't look like an ignorant rube.  I am trying to help you out and you simply cannot help yourself.

Name:	CRD -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade
Date:	7/22/2020 6:18:06 PM

MM, I thought we had already been through the basics of payroll taxes with Fish?  Now Fish, even though you consider me the Cashman, :), believe it or not, I have put on hold some purchases and projects that would immediately get taken care of with a payroll tax holiday of some sort.    I make a call, schedule a long overdue project, the boss tells me he is 2 months out, but he is slowly getting busier and does not want to lose my ( and other's) lucarative business.  So what does he do?  HE HIRES!  So in one transaction, many of us greedy capitalists contribute to getting this economy back on its feet by decreasing the number of those looking for work.  Now when the holiday is eliminated, the newly hired worker will see a drop in his take home, but he has the opportunity to make it up in OT, added skills etc.  T

To me, this makes far more sense than either printing more money that we can't back up, or borrowing from China.   

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	CRD
Date:	7/23/2020 8:06:42 AM

You need to convince the Republican Senators who oppose reducing the payroll tax. It is funny that you try and convince me but your own party doesn't want it. FYI, the SS trust fund has enough solvent issues without stealing from the lock box.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade
Date:	7/23/2020 8:09:11 AM

These are the same people that think soaking the rich with more taxes is the road to paying for big government.  They cannot understand how LLC's and s-corps that are taxed as a partnership, the job creators and real engine of the economy, are the ones most impacted by this mentality.  They don't understand that our being successful and having lower marginal tax rates has always and will always increase economic activity and revenues to the Treasury.  They don't understand how payroll taxes work and what would happen with a payroll tax holiday.  And they certainly don't uderstand human nature. 

And it seems that no amount of facts, logic or reason can penetrate their invincible ignorance.  Very frustrating since this really is very simple and easy to understand even with a bare modicum of economic literacy....something they appear to lack.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Did you really say lock box?!?!?!?
Date:	7/23/2020 8:19:34 AM

OMG Goofy!  You've outdone yourself with this one.  News flash from LBJ's administration, funds in the SS trust are included in the Federal budget.  It is not in a "lock box" and the SSA has projected that come 2034 they will be paying out more than they will be collecting even without a holiday.  But again, the whole idea is to stimulate the economy and this concept is an excellent one to do so, much better than giving it to unions who then take the money to buy political ads for Democrats.  This idea helps stimulate the economy, helps all those working and creates new jobs for those that want to work....so of course Democrats oppose it.

As for the GOP Senators that are opposed to this, what makes you think that party is immune to economic illiteracy?  The key difference though is that 100% of the Democrats in the House and the Senate are economically illiterate.  So I'd rather be in a party of the minority than the one where they are all stupid.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade
Date:	7/23/2020 8:40:38 AM

I certainly undertand how partnerships are taxed as I participate in a few and enjoy the Section 199A deduction of 20% of income as a pass through entity.

Where will the money come from to payoff the PPP deficit? I guess that is no big deal since the right supported it. Looks like every company wanted a piece of the action. Welfare is no longer just for the poor.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Martini and His Fake Post
Date:	7/23/2020 8:45:48 AM

Rest assured, I fully understand how both SS and Medicare tax work. My wife was self employed and I did the filings myself. So, I am quite familiar with SS tax, the employers portion, and the business expense write off for the “employer’s”(other 50%) portion. No different than you using the 50% your company pays as a business expense.

“And the poorest pay exactly the same amount of tax on their earnings as someone making $1M per year up to whatever they earn.  So some construction worker that makes $25K per year pays exactly the same FICA on that $25K as the guy that makes $200K per year.”

They may pay the same percent but certainly not the same amount. The amount of FICA paid by the $25,000 construction worker in 2020 is $1.550 and the employer pays the same. The person earning $200,000 pays $8,537 and the employer pays the same (6.2% on first $137,000).

Martini Man, you need to think before you post so you don't look plain ignorant.  In your haste to try and make me look like an ignorant rude, you have shown yourself as someone who is either devoid of the actual facts or intentionally trying to post another Fake Post.

Now cheer up and Stay Safe. BTW...you look sharp with a mask.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade double time
Date:	7/23/2020 8:54:04 AM

First of all, letting people keep more of their hard earned money is hardly welfare.  Giving money to someone that didn't earn it at the expense of others and taken at the point of a gun is welfare.  Second of all, deficits are deficits since all the revenue to the Treasury, whether from income or payroll taxes, count toward it.  Third....yes, in times of national emergency even us mean, old, white, greedy capitalists recognize that deficit spending is necessary. 

The difference between us and the left is we actually don't think that way all the time.  But we also understand that close to 80% of the Federal budget is baked into the cake with entitlement programs which is why we oppose any more of them.  So deficits are deficits are deficits and those of us that are economically literate would much prefer deficit spending that actually helps the economy and ordinary Americans versus being handouts to favored groups that will launder the money back into the campaigns of Democrats.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	You need to learn to read
Date:	7/23/2020 9:04:01 AM (updated 7/23/2020 9:10:53 AM)

Let me put up the money quote from my post and I have bolded the critical few words that you apparently did not comprehend.

“And the poorest pay exactly the same amount of tax on their earnings as someone making $1M per year up to whatever they earn.  So some construction worker that makes $25K per year pays exactly the same FICA on that $25K as the guy that makes $200K per year.”

As I pointed out everyone pays exactly the same FICA tax up to the max (~$137K) and anyone that makes more does not pay any more of the SS tax, but they do continue to pay the Medicare portion. So as a percentage of overall income, a payroll tax holiday disproportionately benefits lower income workers.....i.e., it is progressive.  While the same tax disproportionately benefits higher income workers.....i.e., it is regressive.  Amazing.....I actually want to do something that benefits the working poor, lower and middle classes.....will wonders never cease?  And why you might ask?  Because they are the ones that are more likely to actually spend those extra dollars rather than saving them.  I cannot believe I have to explain this to you again.

Learn to read better Goofy.

Name:	CRD -	Reply
Subject:	CRD
Date:	7/23/2020 10:31:14 AM

The plan offered would provide government bonds to the SSA so that there would be no adverse effect on benefits paid and due or promised to seniors.  Obama did the same thing when he temporarily cut the payroll tax.  Another erroneous talking point Fish.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	FIFY
Date:	7/23/2020 10:37:54 AM

The plan offered would provide government bonds to the SSA so that there would be no adverse effect on benefits paid and due or promised to seniors.  Obama did the same thing when he temporarily cut the payroll tax.  Another in a long line of erroneous talking points Fish.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade double time
Date:	7/23/2020 12:20:14 PM

"Giving money to someone that didn't earn it at the expense of others and taken at the point of a gun is welfare."

Like companies that applied for and kept PPP money?

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	You need to learn to read
Date:	7/23/2020 12:24:34 PM

“And the poorest pay exactly the same amount of tax on their earnings as someone making $1M per year up to whatever they earn.  So some construction worker that makes $25K per year pays exactly the same FICA on that $25K as the guy that makes $200K per year.”

The poor do NOT pay the same AMOUNT of tax on their earnings. They pay the same RATE but not the same AMOUNT.

Your chuch education failed you this time.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Ugh...can't believe I have to do this
Date:	7/23/2020 12:32:52 PM

OMG!  Each W-2 employee pays 6.2% for payroll taxes on every dollar they earn up to a maximum of around $137K.  Each company likewise pays 6.2% on every dollar they pay to W-2 employees on every dollar up to $137K.  Each self employed person pays the entire amount subject to the same limits.  So for a guy that makes $200,000 per year he pays $1,550 on the first $25K in earnings.  A person that makes $25,000 per year in W-2 wages likewise pays $1,550 on their first $25,000 in earnings.  And the employer likewise pays $1,550 on those $25K in wages.  Can this be any clearer?!?!?

Goofy, you were cheated by your educational institutions...I would demand a refund immediately.  You have a very strong case....nearly bulletproof.  Just show them this thread and they will give you your money back.  I am sure of it.....

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Economic illiteracy on parade double time
Date:	7/23/2020 12:52:32 PM (updated 7/23/2020 12:55:45 PM)

No, because not only do those companies take their customer's money and use a portion to pay corporate income taxes (or personally by shareholders if they are taxed as a partnership) but their employees likewise pay income taxes on their wages.  Just so you understand, because we view this entirely opposite of each other.....the government creates nothing.  They simply take money from people (either directly or through taxes on businesses that are paid by their customers) at the point of a gun.  That some companies got a portion of that money back through the PPP program is not even remotely welfare....they paid for it and then some....and will continue to do so.

And even the PPP money is not "tax free" despite the misinformation.  Let me once again educate you.  Let's say a company takes a PPP loan for $1M.  And they use that $1M on wages paid over an 8-week period to employees and that $1M is ultimately forgiven.  Right off the bat that $1M is reduced between 21% and 39.6% because they are not allowed to deduct the payroll costs as a business expense.  So the $1M is now down to between $604K and $800K.  And then a portion of the wages that are paid using those funds likewise go to federal income taxes at whatever the marginal rate tax rate is for their employees.  Assuming a blended rate of 25% for all the employees that means that another $250K goes back to the Federal govt in the form of personal income taxes.  Add them all up and of the $1M in forgiven loan proceeds, only between $354K to $550K actually stays with the business. 

Now let's imagine that business has been around for 10 years at the same payroll of $1M every 2 months which equates to $6M per year ($60M in wages paid over that decade).  At a blended income tax rate of 25% that comes to $1.5M in income taxes paid by their employees each year or $15M over ten years.  And note this does not include income taxes paid by the companies or their shareholders, just those paid by their employees.  So for $15M in income taxes they caused to be paid to the Federal govt over 10 years they get a measely $345K to $550K back from PPP.  That my pointy headed friend ain't welfare....corporate or otherwise.

Sue your school system Goofy....do it now.