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Name:	jawjagal -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - got it all wrong
Date:	4/27/2006 10:24:08 PM

Name: WSMS The author of this post is registered as a member -
Subject: There was a time...
Date: 4/26/2006 2:18:08 AM

when every boat you saw would have rushed to help.

Those days disappeared when the big boats brought a new attitude to the lake.

Coincidence? Or reaping what you sow?

Think about it.

Last summer at the end of the day at Chimney Rock, after idling for a while, our boat conked out. We could not get it started. Dusk was setting in and we had to get back to Blue Creek. Out of the blue, we got help by someone who creatively took a ski rope and pulled manually, like you would on a mower. It worked. We were so grateful - tried to reward the guy for his help, but we became separated by all the confusion, trying to keep our motor going and getting back before dark, and other boats leaving the area.

That help came from -

(but I didn't know his name at the time and it was only HERE ON THIS FORUM that we figured each other out) -

are you ready?

CATBOAT.

So, WSMS. You want to try and convince ME that:

"Those days disappeared when the big boats brought a new attitude to the lake."

I don't think so.

Name:	babygirl -	Reply
Subject:	Thanks Jaw!!!!
Date:	4/27/2006 10:51:32 PM

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	Two rules
Date:	4/27/2006 11:10:01 PM

1. NEVER pass up an opportunity to help someone in need on the water--it WILL be you one day---not if---when!

2. If you need help don't be shy. Wave both arms for help--don't assume the passerby knows you need help.

Name:	CAT BOAT -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - got it all wrong
Date:	4/28/2006 7:34:53 AM

You are welcome Jaw, I was happy to assist you. Have a great weekend.

Name:	WSMS -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - got it all wrong
Date:	4/28/2006 11:07:58 AM

You are certianly entitled to your own opinion; last time I checked, so was I.

And rather than try to convince you of what I believe to be true, I'll let you try to convince me. What do you think is the reason that boater courtesy has taken an incredible nosedive in the last 15-20 years?

Name:	JMSD -	Reply
Subject:	Ummm....let me think.....
Date:	4/28/2006 2:32:18 PM

probably BAD ATTITUDES and RESPECT. Two things that have absolutely nothing to do with owning a big boat. Courtesey is a learned behavior. So maybe it goes to poor parenting! Just my guess! There are people with big boats, small boats and no boats that have no idea how to be courteous and lend a helping hand to someone in need. So I definitely don't believe that this lack of "helping your neighbor" on the lake has absolutely anything to do with the "big boat movement" as you call it!

Name:	jawjagal -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - who says it has?
Date:	4/28/2006 3:23:58 PM

Name: WSMS The author of this post is registered as a member -
Subject: WSMS - got it all wrong
Date: 4/28/2006 11:07:58 AM

You are certianly entitled to your own opinion; last time I checked, so was I.

And rather than try to convince you of what I believe to be true, I'll let you try to convince me. What do you think is the reason that boater courtesy has taken an incredible nosedive in the last 15-20 years?

When you debate, you need to prove your point by statistics, emotion, or logical reasoning. Who said boater courtesy has taken an incredible nosedive in the last 15-20 years? You? What is your title or experience with boater courtesy (give examples.) What are the statistics, or the documented information that you can prove it has been going on for 15-20 years? What is the general definition of "boater courtesy" ?

Back your opinion with facts. Then, I'll debate you. I am not going to debate YOUR opinion , "What do you think is the reason that boater courtesy has taken an incredible nosedive in the last 15-20 years?" because I don't believe it.

Sure you are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. I, at least, gave an example of a good Samaritan on the lake. I don't need convincing otherwise. It happened to me personally.

When I get your facts - not opinions, have examples of bad experiences, hear about many examples of bad experiences, get your title of authenticity about your knowledge of boater courtesy in the last 15-20 years (your reputation as an expert), and when I understand your definition of "boater courtesy" (give definition), then we'll talk.

I'll be waiting.....

Name:	Feb -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - got it all wrong
Date:	4/28/2006 3:35:38 PM

Could be an interesting discussion that reaches well beyond the Lake, boating and many other individual facets of life. Here are a few things I can think of possibly or possibly not playing into the scenario:

1. Cell Phones - Most folks kind of think since they have a cell phone everyone else does. That is their first safety net in an emergency or needing assistance. Instead of waving for help, they start dialing. Since they think that way, they think others act the same. Some of the later discussion point may lead to why so many have cell phone beyond just the luxury of technology.

2. Getting away from boating and the Lake. How many of us stop to help someone in a broken down car? Whether crime is geater now or thirty years ago is an intereting point. Yes, there is more crime but there is also a higher population. Is the % of crime greater? We all here the number and certain crime %'s are up and certain ones or down. Seems to follow strange patterns. Gasoline thefts are probably up now. Whether it is up or down, I think we can all make the reasonable assumption that we hear about it more in the news. That maybe because we are of an information age, and news plays a major role. So, lets just say that maybe fear or caution play a role in current day assistance to strangers who are often times our unknown neighbors. It is one thing to possibly place yourself in what might be considered a risking situation, but are you willing to do that when your family is with you and at the same risk? There was a time when some would start working with an injured stranger even with blood involved without even thinking of those risk that we now know of in the form of HIV and etc.

3. Could time play a role? My Father worked but only worked set hours. My Mother stayed home, raised the kids, cleaned the house, cooked the meals and ran the errands to include shopping. Now days, both partners in a marriage or family work , and you hear more and more of longer hours. Hey, 12 and 14 hour days are not unheard of and commuting hours are getting longer in more traffic and slower speeds. Then those same two working partners still have to do everything else in a household. Then there is looking for those precious minutes to spend with their children. Another great think is that our parents are living longer and are availble to enjoy time with or possibly assist for some. When I got home from school as a kid, I would just disappear into the neighborhood or local woods. The crime concern mentioned above may have changed that aspect of life forever since now ti is supervised activities. My point here is that adults have less and less times to relax and enjoy life together. Do they want to stop and spend part of that precious time with a stranger who possibly is a neighbor, or do they want to make the most of what little time they have with themselves or immediate family? Think about it.

Just somes things that come to my mind. There are certainly others, and not all lead one to believe that others are bad people. Maybe it is bad times and a worse quality of life.

Name:	JohnGalt -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - who says it has?
Date:	4/28/2006 4:48:30 PM

atta girl, must have read that Freakanomics book you posted about some time ago.

Name:	WSMS -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - who says it has?
Date:	4/28/2006 5:33:43 PM

Here's a post on this very topic from someone else:
"I don't know, but I do know this: up until about 15-20 years ago, everyone always stopped to help. Looking out for each other was just one of those things that we did on Lake Martin. I NEVER had to row home, drift home or swim home; even if I saw just ONE boat, that boat stopped to help.

Likewise, I never passed anyone who appeared to need help without stopping, and I would up towing plenty of boats myself.

But, that changed in the last two decades; if you don't believe me, then you are calling babygirl a liar, since her post illustrates what I am saying. SOMETHING in the attitude of Lake Martin boaters changed. Coincidentally, this attitude shift occurred at the same time that big boats became a more common sight on the lake. Maybe that's a coincidence.

Then again, maybe it isn't; one complaint that people have about those in big boats is that they seem to have a "You don't matter to me" attitude; wouldn't that same attitude be held by someone who refuses to help a fellow boater who is in distress?"
..........................................................................................................

His experience is similar to mine. From my first days on the lake (in the early 1960's) until the late 1980's, I was NEVER stranded for any longer than it took for the FIRST boat to come by. NEVER. And, it was always the first boat; NO ONE ever passed me by. NOT ONE SINGLE BOAT.

The first of the special big-boat slips that I recall was at Kowaliga, in 1987. The first time I ever had a boat pass me by was a couple of years later. And in 1994, I broke down near Sand Island, and swam my boat to Kowaliga... on a SATURDAY... in JUNE. Do you think I saw any other boats that I tried to flag down? You bet I did. Do you think any boats passed me while I was SWIMMING to Kowaliga, towing a boat behind me? You bet they did. Did ANY of those boats stop? Not one.

Again-- before the big boats invaded, I was always helped by the FIRST BOAT I saw. Just a few years later, I was passed by dozens of boats.

Am I saying that all big boat owners are inconsiderate jerks? No I am not, though I'm sure someone will try to twist my words to make it sound like that; I'm getting used to the tactic. But I am saying that, since the time the big boats first appeared, the "helpful boater" is a rarer breed than it was before.

Now, as far as offering the cold hard statistics that you crave, I doubt they exist. So, we can only go by personal experiences. I've told you mine, I copied longtimer's from an earlier post, and we're all responding to babygirl's post. That's three people right there who will attest that the first boat doesn't always stop to help.

But I'm interested in hearing everyone's experiences. One thing, though-- if you've only been on the lake since 1999, don't try to tell us how things were here in 1981, 1971 or 1961; leave that to the people that were actually here, OK?

Name:	jawjagal -	Reply
Subject:	WSMS - good job!
Date:	4/28/2006 6:16:40 PM

Name: WSMS The author of this post is registered as a member -
Subject: WSMS - who says it has?
Date: 4/28/2006 5:33:43 PM

Very good. I wanted you to present the personal experiences (real life examples of your debate topic) to promote/back up your thought on changes in the last 15-20 years. These three are good choices. But since, I have a good personal experience, I am not convinced.

Now why is that you want ME to convince YOU of something?

Name: WSMS The author of this post is registered as a member -
Subject: WSMS - got it all wrong
Date: 4/28/2006 11:07:58 AM

"And rather than try to convince you of what I believe to be true, I'll let you try to convince me. What do you think is the reason that boater courtesy has taken an incredible nosedive in the last 15-20 years?"

Three examples are good. But it's going to take more than 3 in 15-20 years. I'll be waiting for you to hear back from your request to gain more examples to make a sound case against boater courtesy.

You are right...statictics and other factual information will be hard to obtain. So, personal experiences, I guess, will have to do. This will be, then, a persuasive speech - and if you can't use facts and statistics, then you need to appeal to my emotion. I'll need more than 3 examples. Then I MIGHT change my mind.

By the way - what did you decide is the actual/literal meaning of "boater courtesy?" Have we agreed on that definition yet? I'll need that too, to know what I am agreeing (or not) to.

Go for it.

Name:	eli -	Reply
Subject:	To scarabman and catboat
Date:	4/29/2006 12:26:56 AM

We are newbies, but have to tell you that the first thing that our realtor told us when we bought our cottage on the lake was "always wave to other boaters, and ALWAYS help anyone in trouble". So, I can't disagree that it may be the fault of the newbies, but maybe no one told them (though you shouldn't have to be told), Lots of people new to boating just don't realize that we have responsibilities to our fellow boaters. Catboat, you had the best reply of all! You all have fun on the lake - we are envious in Indiana!

Name:	SCARAB MAN -	Reply
Subject:	To scarabman and catboat
Date:	4/29/2006 10:44:23 AM

Feb nothing was directed your way,I was stirring WSMS up a little.Its the weekend now and im at work waiting on twoish to get here. I love all of you till Monday and then I'll be ready to bicker some more about subjects we can't win. LOL Mr.Newbie (Elie I think) your realtor was very nice to give advice even though I agree no one should need it. Everyone have a good weekend and hope to see ya on the lake.
Tyler

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