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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
In the meantime...surrender in Iraq
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Date:
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10/24/2011 8:26:13 PM
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Listened to John Burns, a NY Times guy that spent 5 years as bureau chief in Iraq. He was depondent about the decision by Oblamer to leave despite all advice to the contrary by the military leaders. He said within no time Iraq will be a puppet of Iran as we see in Lebanon. This is why you cannot trust national security to liberals. They simply do not care about anything other than their retention of power.
He has been wrong on everything in foreign affairs but I thought he would at least honor the sacrifice of the military and the American people by staying the course and maintaining a presence in Iraq. I should have known better. And now we have Sharia law coming to Libya. Egypt goes from moderation to fanatacism. And so one and so on. You know, if he wasn't a self proclaimed Christian by his actions as opposed to his words one would have to wonder if he was really a Muslim after all. He is doing more to advance radical Islam than Osama bin Laden ever did.
It is a very sad day for America and the world.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/24/2011 8:53:20 PM
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Hound, GF, Archie are right now taking a quintriple dose of their blood pressure meds because someone dared point out that the actions of the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue would cause rational people to believe he has radical Muslim sympathies. Webbie, make sure the backup server is plugged in while I get some popcorn.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/25/2011 8:43:26 AM
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Well actually I was very careful in my wording in that it does make one wonder doesn't it? Problem for them is actions speak louder than words and here we have a guy that doesn't practice his self-proclaimed faith. And when he did it was in a black liberation theology sect with close ties to a nutty Islamic preacher (Calypso Louie).........certainly reason to wonder........ :-)
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| Name: |
Old Diver
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/25/2011 10:29:24 PM
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Remember how Jimmy Carter pulled the rug from under the Shaw of Iran because he did not have a good "human rights" record? That worked out well didn't it? We are still paying for that blunder.
We will pay for this Quisling for many, many years.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 7:36:23 AM
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FYI - "Shah" of Iran, not Shaw.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 7:48:49 AM
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We also "pulled the rug" out from under Noriega in Panama and the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan after the Russian Occupation. And we've pulled the rug out from under the Pakistan several times, when we no longer needed them.
You could say that it just may be our fault if Iran takes over Iraq after we leave. Uh, didn't we depose the leader of Iraq and destablize the country? Don't forget that Iraq and Iran were at war for a number of years and we were supporting Iraq, until we didn't.
The truth is that we can't stay in Iraq forever. Our country can no longer afford it. And while the military is leaving Iraq, we are sending in a large number of State Department teams to prop up the government, so it's not like we are abandoning Iraq, when we pull out the military. The Iraqi people need to step up. They had a decent military until we "dissolved" it. They fought Iran for a number of years.
And remember what Colin Powell told Bush about Iraq --- "You Break it, you bought it"
We've certainly paid for it with lives and $$$$. You want to blame someone, blame the neocons that convinced Bush to go into Iraq "to build a democracy in the Middle East".
And no, I don't support Obama's plan to send troops to Uganda and possibly Kenya. But, that's a discussion for another thread.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 8:29:52 AM
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Hound, you are right about our sorry history of cutting and running. However, you should look at your list and see which party controlled the WH when we did. Almost always a Democrat with notable exceptions (Nixon in Vietnam).
As for Iraq, we could argue all day about whether going in there or not was a good idea but that is pointless. We did, just like we did in Europe in WWI/II, Korea and Vietnam. The difference is we left troops in Europe, Japan and Korea and for the last 50 years have had peace in all of them. Not so in Iraq and regardless of who was responsible for getting us there only one person, Obama, is going to be responsible for surrendering. And he is doing so for one reason only, to shore up his crumbling base because he knows he cannot win reelection without them. What he is counting on is Independents forgiving or forgetting that he grasped defeat from the jaws of victory in both Iran and Afghanistan by ignoring his military commanders. If they do shame on them and if they don't and the economy continues to crumble he will lose and there will be some hope for America.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 9:01:14 AM
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You know, MM, you may be right, but didn't Bush set the date we would be out of Iraq? I seem to recall that he did, and I thought it was 2012, so in this case, Obama is just moving the date up. For political reason? Maybe. But, according to the polls I've read, the majority of Americans feel it is time to get out of Iraq. So another way to look at it is that he is listening to the American people. The truth is that whether we leave in 2012 or 2011, it won't make a difference.
And yes, we did leave troops everywhere we fought, but you really have to question if that is a good model to follow? It's a different war we fight now, and for different reasons. Should be have left troops in Kuwait after the first Gulf War? The military was upset at that time that we left, feeling that we should have gone into Bagdad at that point and neutalized Saddam at that point.
At this point, I don't really care if Obama made the decision based on politics. I'm just glad it is going to happen. And we both know that the referendum for the next election is not Iraq or Afghanistan. It's going to be jobs.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 9:55:24 AM
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Hound, you are right that Bush set the timetable but not to pull all the troops out. And I could be wrong but I think had his military commanders asked him to leave anywhere from an absolute bare minimum 3,000 troops up to 20,000 he would have listened. And I am not saying its bad politics, its just bad foreign affairs. Just like we will see with the eventual outcome of the Arab spring. Instead of what we were told would happen we are going to end up with a number of new, radicalized, Islamic cleric run middle eastern countries and that will not be good for our national security or for the people of those countries. I hope I am wrong about that expectation but all evidence points to this being a disaster.
Either way, the pull out is Obama's decision and he did so contrary to the best advice of his military leaders. He will have to reconcile that with the American people, assuming they care. And I would also agree that a lot of Americans wanted out of Iraq but I would like to see a poll that asked them the following: "Would you support American troops remaining in Iraq to prevent the country from becoming a satellite of Iran?" I am betting that a majority, or at least a plurality would say yes, especially since Iran has now been caught plotting the murders in D.C. All of that is moot and the die is cast. Obama will get kudos from his base and we will see how it all works out over the next several years.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Now you are gonna get them started again...
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Date:
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10/26/2011 10:26:31 AM
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My observation is that the military will never concede to remove troops until they achieve absolute victory. This is for a number of reasons -- some cultural to the military and also a bit selfishly -- because their "business" is war. Careers are made in war time, not in peacetime. The promotion rate is higher too. (and I don't say this to be dismissive of the military. But, the generals know this) But the truth is, we've been using our military in Iraq as a "police" force and also as a "nation-building" force and that truly is not the mission of the military.
I'm rather mixed on Iran. They talk a lot, but I'm not sure what they are actually doing. He knows it will feed Western fears if he talks about getting more involved with Iraq, but will he actually do anything? Time will tell. He talks about aniliating Israel too, but he hasn't. He enjoys a bit of saber rattling. It give him a platform that he wouldn't ordinarily have.
Radical clerics? Maybe. But, I'm more worried about the instability in Libya than in Iraq.
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