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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/28/2008 10:10:53 PM
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Republicans have rightly pointed out that 40% of American households do not pay income tax -- although they more often wrongly just stop at saying that they do not pay taxes, period. From the second, wrong, statement, they assert that giving money to those who do not pay taxes is welfare, socialism and, now, communism.
Actually, these lower income people do pay taxes -- payroll taxes and medicare taxes that are quite significant. Lest anyone become apoplectic that revenues from those taxes are not part of the budget, think again: the social security trust fund has been making up the deficits in the US budget for decades. If it were not for appropriating the surplus in the social security trust fund, even the Republican Congress would have found it difficult to enact its tax cuts.
But even if that were not true, and that the social security trust fund were indeed in a 'lock-box', the Republicans have a bigger problem: the earned income tax credit ("EITC") that was enacted by Gerald Ford and then re-enacted and expanded in 1986 by... could it be, don't tell me, say it ain't so!... RONALD REAGAN.
The EITC uses tax revenues (derived from our progressive tax system) to provide additional income to people below certain income levels under a formula so that it gradually phases out as incomes increases. Qualifying families receive a monthly check from the government.
So, Ronald Reagan was a redistributor. That must mean he was a socialist, even a communist. That's what happens when you pal around with Mikhail Gorbachev.
Now, we all know Reagan was far from a socialist but when you throw around terms like that one has to question how what Obama proposes is that much different from the Earned Income Credit that was enacted and expanded under 2 Republican Presidents?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 7:00:53 AM
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Social Security and Medicare are definitely socialist programs ... those individuals get far more in benefits funded from higher income people than the little that lower income people contribute in to the funds.
Having them pay less and fund more from higher incomes just expands the socialist view of the program to redistribute the wealth.
Additionally the revenue the government takes in from these programs are not typically consider when the government speaks of taxes. taxes are what is taken in to fund the governement and programs .... while the government borrows from these funds ... they were never suppose to be used as part of the general fund. that is partly why they are in trouble, because had the revenue been invested in the early years when there were more paying in than taking out they would be in better shape.
But Carter also allowed people to draw from the funds (illegal immigrants) that never paid in.
I am sure your point is that Obama will just look at those socialist programs as part of general tax revenue and that is your point how it can be consider a tax cut.
Even at 53 years old ... i would let the government keep everything i paid in if they just let me out now.
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AMEN! ✡
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 7:57:07 AM
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GF, there are numerous examples of Republicans straying from conservative principals. My question for you is so what? I would much rather have a Republican straying occasionally from conservative principals than a socialist like Obama that never strays from marxist doctrine (except in what he says when he is lying).
All your post does is to point out the need for conservatives to be elected to office so we can ovoid further stupidity.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Help me understand.
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Date:
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10/29/2008 8:18:48 AM
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Now you socialists want to remove these fine folks from the SS rolls as well. Well isn't that special. SS was designed as a RETIREMENT program. So we are supposed to not make them pay in ANYTHING, but be entitiled to the same benifits as those of us that actually CONTRIBUTE.
Can you say..... To each..... From each....
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| Name: |
Council Roc Doc
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 8:46:56 AM
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GF, you make it sound like the EITC was a Reagan idea. It's basis goes back to 1975. It was revised numerous times and what Reagan noted was that the EITC was being absorbed by the rate of inflation. He attached an inflation adjuster to the credit. It certainly was not HIS plan. You must get your facts straight.
The EITC, as it was proposed, was to encourage people to work. It removed many individuals from the poverty roles with a credit that was phased out after so much money was earned, but certainly was an incentive to get off your butt and work. Unlike O's plan, which is to take my hardworking money and give it to individuals brazenly who don't pay taxes. It pays people to not work.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 11:07:54 AM
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Doc, sorry if I implied something that was not true. I wrote that the earned income tax credit ("EITC") was enacted by Gerald Ford.
As to the Obama tax plan, the Right is just reading what they want to read. Obama and Biden will provide 95 percent of working Americans the tax relief they need. They will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family.
These are WORKING FAMILIES. You may disagree with the fairness, but it is not going to those who sit on their butts.
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| Name: |
PikeSki
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| Subject: |
Obama / Marx
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Date:
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10/29/2008 11:32:28 AM
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GF. You say that the right is using the phrase Marxist and Socialist to scandalize Obama. Again, I beg to differ with you. You must agree that this only stems from the Book that Obama himself wrote called "Dreams of my Father" where he speaks very clearly about his Socialst friends and his Marxist views and why he tends to agree with this form of government.
Again, Just to point out my previous post in Baraks own words:
"Obama himself acknowledges that he was drawn to socialists and even Marxists as a college student. He continued to associate with Marxists later in life, even choosing to launch his political career in the living room of a self-described Marxist, William Ayers, in 1995, when Obama was 34.
Obama's affinity for Marxists began when he attended Occidental College in Los Angeles.
"To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully," the Democratic presidential candidate wrote in his memoir, "Dreams From My Father." "The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."
Obama's interest in leftist politics continued after he transferred to Columbia University in New York. He lived on Manhattan's Upper East Side, venturing to the East Village for what he called "the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union."
After graduating from Columbia in 1983, Obama spent a year working for a consulting firm and then went to work for what he described as "a Ralph Nader offshoot" in Harlem.
"In search of some inspiration, I went to hear Kwame Toure, formerly Stokely Carmichael of …Black Panther fame, speak at Columbia," Obama wrote in "Dreams," which he published in 1995. "At the entrance to the auditorium, two women, one black, one Asian, were selling Marxist literature."
Obama supporters point out that plenty of Americans flirt with radical ideologies in college, only to join the political mainstream later in life. But Obama, who made a point of noting how "carefully" he chose his friends in college, also chose to launch his political career in the Chicago living room of Ayers, a domestic terrorist who in 2002 proclaimed: "I am a Marxist."
Also present at that meeting was Ayers' wife, fellow terrorist Bernardine Dohrn, who once gave a speech extolling socialism, communism and "Marxism-Leninism."
Mister Fishin . . . What say you to this truth?
How can you refute this from Obama's own mouth? You can't. You are just to proud to admit that this is a very dangerous man. Is pride a vice or virtue?
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
?
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Date:
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10/29/2008 11:41:39 AM
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How is he going to help 95% of the taxpayers when 45% don't pay taxes? Is he going to help 95% of the 55% who do pay taxes? Just curious.
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| Name: |
AUCATZ
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 11:51:28 AM
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GF, he has already this week lowered his plans to give tax relief from the less than $250k down to the less than $150k incomes. In all honesty, what Biden said recently is probably true - there will be no tax relief because the economy can't afford it. Of course, he can continue the current trend of printing token paper money to fund his program, but it probably won't happen any time soon.
When time comes to pay the piper for all the promises, it will be interesting to see his orate his way out of that.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 12:12:15 PM
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When you rob Peter (the "rich") to provide services to Peter and Paul (the "poor and working poor"), that is appropriate within the parameters of what Peter and Paul really need from government (national defense, infrastructure, etc.). When you rob Peter to give the money to Paul, that is indeed socialism. When you increase the marginal tax rates of Peter and turn around and give that money to Paul in the form of tax credits that is socialism. Don't tell me that his plan involves giving part of Paul's FICA and Medicare tax back because that is not what is happening. If you tell me that Obama proposes to reduce the benefits of Paul under Social Security or Medicare then I will accept the premise but that is not the case.
This is not difficult to understand, it is redistribution of wealth, it is socialism and it is giving our money to people that do not deserve it. Until Obama says he is reducing the future obligations of social security and medicare this is another example of Obama lying and getting away with it because the mainstream media is negligent.
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| Name: |
PikeSki
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| Subject: |
Socialism Revisited
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Date:
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10/29/2008 12:34:14 PM
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Mr. Martini
Do you think that GF wil vote a straight ticket? HMMMM.......
I believe that if Bin Laden himself was running on the Democratic ticket instead of Obama he would be saying something like "the 9 / 11 thing was 8 years ago. You can't hold him accountable now for what he did 8 years ago".
I think he has shown that he is nothing more than tree stump. But we'll keep posting the truth and see if maybe one day it sinks in.
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