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Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/28/2006 7:44:44 PM

I am having a problem with my boat dock shocking swimmers. I have had the doat dock completely rewired so I am almost certain there is not a short. I have measured the current and it is pulling less than 1 amp so it is not really dangerous but troubling nontheless. I have had several people look at it and suggest: static electricity from the lake, a short on a neighbors dock and return through my ground. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Name:	Backwoodsbxers -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 12:22:42 AM

Hello,
We have the same problem... After talking to several electricians and electrial engineers... they say the problem is with Alabama Power Company. We are getting feed back thur their neutral bus on their power lines is the conclusion they have come up with since so many of us have the same problem.
We however did ground our boat house using a ground rod near the waters edge and it has helped tremendously.

Name:	turnipgreen -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 8:45:25 AM

Have you tried turning off your power to the dock by tripping the breaker, just to be sure it isn't your power?

Ron

Name:	Blazer -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 1:52:02 PM

We have experienced the same problem on my neighbors dock next door. It didn't even have power to the dock when they first installed it. ...yet it would give you a gentle shock when you used their ladder.

The dock has power now, and you still get the shock. He plans to install a grounding rod to see if that helps/eliminates the problem.

Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 2:39:45 PM

Thanks for the tip. We are groumded but pretty far from the water. I will play around with our ground location.

Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 2:43:41 PM

There doesn't seem to be a relationship between the power being on and the current in the water. It has gone away, in the winter for a few days, but does this with the power on and off; however it always comes back.

Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	6/29/2006 2:50:15 PM

I am ashamed to admit how much money I have spent on this issue including having my whole dock rewired with outdoor wiring and romex conduit. I am going to experiment with our grounding location and report back.

Name:	Handy Man -	Reply
Subject:	Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/4/2006 4:14:25 AM

I'd bet that somewhere near you there is a short to ground. I have noticed that there are several pumps being used for irrigation and know from experience that it is not at all uncommon for submersible pumps to have shorts or "leak electricity" into the water. Of course, this is only one of many possiblities. Anyone using electrical appliances, hot tubs,etc. on the water is at risk of having a dangerous problem... every plug, circuit, receptacle, etc. really needs to be properly grounded and GFI's used. Around my property there is a high amount of iron in the earth (my magnet will pick up lots of pebbles), alot of metal boat docks, black plastic floats (high in static electricity) and then there's all the electricity from the dam only 2 miles away....great combination for some concern about electrical shock.

Name:	roswellric -	Reply
Subject:	I had this and found
Date:	7/10/2006 9:32:23 AM

the problem was the wire supplying power to my dock that was buried with an improper splice. I actually measured the voltage between the dock and the water and it was 9 volts.

During my reasearch I also found out it could be a neighbor's line leaking as well. It also could have even been a bad electric water heater element leaking a small amount of current into the water which is grounded. You definately have a ground fault. Do you not have a GFI at your dock?

Name:	roswellric -	Reply
Subject:	Oh yes..
Date:	7/10/2006 9:34:31 AM

More than likely, the fault is close to your dock.....

Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	I had this and found
Date:	7/27/2006 12:44:52 PM

I have a GFI on every outlet. They are tripped every time I come to the lake.

Name:	JUA -	Reply
Subject:	Dont electrocute the cat...
Date:	8/7/2006 12:11:36 AM

....Call an electrician before someone gets killed.
I have seen this type of mystery shock occur before and discovered the 120v switched wire from the breaker (black) and the neutral (white) are reversed somewhere. Carefully check the polarity on the GFI plugs where the wire extends to the next box or device.
Used to work at a police/fire dept in central AL where the wires were reverse polarity between the outlet for the water fountain and the Coke machine. It was a favorite trick to see someone getting a drink of water and grab their arm with one hand and use the other one to grab the coke machine. The chief finally rewired it and ended the "fun."
It is entirely possible to stand and hold a hot wire in one hand without a shock, as long as you are completely insulated from a return path, or make sure your insurance is paid up. This is how much of the work on live transmission lines is done by working one phase leg at a time and not having the helicopter touch ground, or another phase.
The same could be happening at the dock. As long as there isn't a return path or a good return path, you'd get a mild shock.
Wally world, K-Mart, and the hardware stores sell one of the plug in polarity checkers for a few dollars. I keep one in the toolbox and check outlets at a new client every time. You'd be amazed at the number of times a reversed outlet will crop up.
I'll bet APCO isn't at fault. They cannot "reverse feed" the neutral. The neutral and the ground connect together in the main breaker panel at each house, just so this cannot happen. It is also illegal for them to do this.

Name:	Striper Jim -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	8/19/2006 5:22:03 AM

Hi Folks,

I've been reading this thread about the SHOCK and it prompted me to sign up as a member just so I could post this and tell you all my experience with BOAT DOCK SHOCK and how to fix it.

Problem: Getting a small shock and it doesn't matter if the power is On or OFF?

Although this particular problem has nothing to do with the Ground Fault - everyone and I mean EVERYONE should install a GFI Breaker in your MAIN POWER BOX onto the Circuit that feeds your dock...

This one single circuit should be supplying your boat dock only. Do not connect anything else to this circuit except the Boat Dock...

At the boat dock you can have as many of the small GFI outlets as you like (like the ones found in a bathroom or kitchen), but do not use these alone as protection... DO install a GFI Breaker in your MAIN POWER BOX onto the one Circuit that feeds your dock... 20 amp is sufficient.

HERE'S HOW TO FIX the PROBLEM - and it's so simple you may kick yourself for not figuering it out - I DID!

When installing the Ground Fault Breaker in the MAIN POWER BOX (or for one that's already installed) DO NOT hook up the naked copper ground wire that runs with the black and white wires to the boat dock...

I.E. Connect the 1 White Wire and the 1 Black Wire as normal ... But, the COPPER ground wire should NOT be connected to the grounding bar strip inside the power box.

I know that sounds crazy and breaks every rule you may know about electricity - but - we were getting the small shock from our swim ladder and a Cullman Electric Line Worker came out to check it and said "ON BOAT DOCKS - YES! DO USE the GROUND FAULT BREAKER in the main box BUT DO NOT hook up the copper ground."

WHY? - because most power companies have a small feedback on "Their" Ground of about 3 to 12 volts... (apparently the voltage varies).

The only time you feel this feedback is if you are completely wet and touch something that's hooked to their ground wire... In our case that was the entire boat dock, as ours is metal and we did have the copper ground hook up to the Ground Bar in the power box ...

Doesn't matter if the power is OFF or ON - you still get shocked.

Of course, 3 to 12 volts won't kill you, but it feels like ants biting when you're climbing up the swim ladder...

So he (Cullman Electric Man ) pulled the copper wire that runs with the White and Black off the grounding bar strip in the Main Box and the problem disappeared.

He then CUT the copper wire off where it came out of the insulation with the other 2 wires so it couldn't even accidentally touch the power box.

His Explination? A ground fault breaker doesn't rely on the copper ground anyway.. It works only by sensing a fault through the white / black wires.

So - before you spend hours sinking more ground rods or re-wiring anything, just pull the copper wire loose from the main box and see if your problem disappears.

Note: I have heard there have been a few deaths on Smith Lake over the years due to electricity/water related combinations. One was a teen boy who was working on or helping to build a boat dock and had ran an extension cord down to the water's edge in order to use a Power Saw. The saw fell off the edge of the dock and natural instinct urged him to grab at it in order to keep it from hitting the water. Problem was, he grabbed the electric saw just as it went under water and it killed him...

HAD that extension cord been plugged into a GFI, this could have been a tragedy avoided.

So - let's all be safe and install a GFI Breaker on the circuit that feeds our docks.. but don't hook up the ground wire.

DISCLAIMER - I am not an electrician, just a fisherman. Nothing is guaranteed, but it fixed our shock problem. If in doubt, call your local electric company and ask them about the feedback on their ground wires.

See Ya
Striper Jim

Name:	Hollywood -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	8/25/2006 5:59:08 PM

Striper Jim, I appreciate you taking time to sign up and comment. This is similar to what others have told me, many of whom, are electricians.

Name:	justalakeguy -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	8/28/2006 8:28:30 AM

Thanks, I will be trying this out this week man I hope it works we have tried everything else. Can't wait to be able to get on dock without that stinging.

Name:	Wirenut -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	8/31/2006 2:28:09 PM

I'm a licensed electrician. I had a customer whose dock was shocking him. I had the entire circuit on a GFCI breaker from the panel. Meaning that the circuit was protected from the panel to the dock and at all points in between. I had complete faith in my wiring. The customer was reading this forum and asked me to disconnet the ground as described by Striper Jim. To see if this would solve the problem. I was reading 4 volts from the dock to the water at the time. When I disconneted the ground the voltage dissappeared. I still didn't like the thought of no direct ground for the cicuit, so I hooked up the ground wire supplying the dock to an isolated ground rod that I used to ground the dock. The mysterious voltage did not reappear using the isolated ground rod. I consider this the safest way to fix this problem.

Name:	Wirenut -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	8/31/2006 4:31:54 PM

To add a note. If you clip the ground wire in the panel and that particular ground wire is tied into in other ground wire somewhere else in the house or in the yard, (which is very common), then you will still have a "panel ground" on that circuit. And you will still get the "phantom" voltage. You must make sure to totally isolate the ground. This can best be done by disconnecting the ground just before it reaches the dock. Because the ground may be used outside of the house for lighting, plugs, etc. I would not just disconnet this ground without attaching it to an isolated ground rod as I said before. Hope this helps.

Name:	Striper Jim -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	9/1/2006 12:11:14 AM

It seems that all docks (aluminum or steel framed) would already have a natural ground without the need of a separate grounding rod...

If the boat dock's connected to the catwalk, and the catwalk's connected to the swivel / tilt mount at the bank, and the swivel / tilt mount is generally all metal and concreted deep into the ground??

But, I guess it doesn't hurt to have and extra grounding rod?

Anyway, as long as you get rid of the stinging / biting from the Power Co's ground feedback and the actual GFI breaker will trip out when necessary, problem then solved. = Happy swimmers with no ants in pants or bathing suits.

Name:	Wirenut -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	9/1/2006 2:52:17 PM

Actually the swivel/tilt mounts are where you will lose a "good" ground. They don't always supply a good connection because they move a lot, are often greased, and all in all a very poor continous bond to ground. I always put wire jumpers across all swivel/tilt points in order to be sure to maintain a constant ground. That is just when I'm grounding the dock. I still recommend a seperate isolated ground rod also. A steel footing may rust or not be deep enough for a good ground anyway. That is why you need a copper clad or galvanized ground rod at least 6 foot long.
Another issue on cutting the ground wire in the panel. That ground may be protecting other circuits outside. Lights, plugs etc. By snipping the ground in the panel you will leave this devices ungrounded. GFCI breaker or not. I would never leave an outside circuit ungrounded.

Name:	Striper Jim -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	9/1/2006 5:52:21 PM

Got it Wirenut! - I do understand now why the tilt swivel would not be a good conductor - makes perfect sense.

However, for clipping the copper ground at the panel and possibly leaving other things ungrounded... ?

The Cullman Power Worker said the dock should be on it's own dedicated circuit and feeding nothing but the dock (mine is)...

So, the possibility of leaving other things unprotected outside, lights, plugs etc shoud not possible by snipping the ground in the panel, as we are speaking of a dedicated circuit to the dock where nothing else is supposed to be on that circuit.

Of course, if you walk up on a circuit that you didn't wire yourself - you really would have to do some tracing and testing to determine if the person before you wired it dedicated or not.

By the way, isn't the netural (white) wire on all circuits connected to the Grounding Strip inside the Panel Box... ummm, the Very Same place where the copper ground wire would be connected if used?

Humm, Electricity - it's a facinating thing!

Another story all together is - actually, I initially became interested in the safety aspects of dock / water / electricity / mixtures over 15 years ago, as I was building underwater lights for myself and other Stripe chasers on the Lake to attract bait fish at our docks. Even the slightest water leak into an underwater light will trip a GFI at the box , as it indeed should. The GFI should be tested from time to time to insure it is in good working order, but usually if they go bad, the breaker won't even set.

Name:	Wirenut -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	9/1/2006 6:59:32 PM

You're right Striper Jim. The ground and neutral bars are bonded in most all panels. So connecting the wire to either bar is the same result. Some panels only have one bar. Almost all of those made in the sixties and before only have one bar. You're also right that the dock should have a designated circuit. But I've been an electrician for 25 years and I've seen a lot that were'nt. I've seen a lot that aren't even on a GFI. Just today I was working on some circuits around a swimming pool. No GFI's. No weather proof boxes. No conduit. 20 year old romex directly buried. Not rated for Underground. Switches and plugs falling apart from the weather. A Doctor's house. Very dangerous. Advised a complete rewire. They just want thier lights to work. There is a lot of unsafe wiring in this area. But everyone needs to be especially careful around water.
I would rather get that strange tingling backfeed on a well grounded dock GFI circuit than to completely do away with the ground. As you mentioned about the drop cord and saw. A faulty cord can energize a dock. If the hot wire comes into contact with a metal dock and the dock is well grounded it will trip even a regular breaker. If the dock isn't grounded and a hot wire comes in contact with it, than it is a death trap. I've read of several fatalities that were caused this way. I urge everyone to ground thier docks!

Name:	Sully -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 11:38:36 AM

I know this is an old message string, but I recently read this because we too have a "tingle" on our ladder while getting out of the lake. I have a dedicated circuit to the boathouse with a sub-panel near our ramp. When I read this, I really thought we had a solution to our problem. However yesterday I trouble shooted based on the comments above and we still have the tingle. I discounnected the main box GFCI breaker's ground (pigtail) wire and I switched off the sub-panel breakers so no power to the dock.......we still are getting the "tingle". My nieghbor next door has it as well.....but not on the ladder but on their dock anchor cables (which I don't have). I also have all GFCI recepticals on the dock....scratching my head!!!

Name:	Sully -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 11:56:19 AM

Name:	Astro -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 2:10:38 PM

Having worked for a power company for many years and dealing with this type problem I will express my thoughts. Treating dock wiring as if it is an extension cord solves the problem. People are normally getting shocked when the house ground is connected to the dock and that creates a difference in potential between the dock metal and water. Make sure that the bare ground does not contact any part of the metal. A common problem is the boat lift motor. The motor is grounded to the motor frame which in turn is usually attached directly to metal dock flooring. You can check to see if this is the problem by putting a voltmeter probe into the water and the other touching the metal on the dock, then uplug the hoist and you should see the voltage disappear if that is the only place where the ground is touching metal. In every case I have worked on it was never the 120 volts energizing the dock but the ground potential difference. Other post encouraging GFI breakers is spot on and should never be disconnected. GFI breakers will protect if the live circuit becomes shorted but does not protect the ground potential problem.

Name:	Astro -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 2:12:12 PM

Name:	Sully -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 2:26:46 PM

Name:	Astro -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/8/2016 4:04:18 PM

The GFI breakers works by comparing the neutral (white wire) to the current going through the black wire. If there is any difference in the amount of current between them the breaker trips. Just removing the white wire does not seperate the bare ground wire. If your boat dock circuit has the bare ground wire run along with the two power wires unhook the bare ground from the panel and see if your problem disappears. If it does then that bare ground is touching metal on your dock. Probably a metal receptable box or screw holding the box on. Hope this helps. I live on Rock Creek and if you are in this area I will be glad to try and help with your problem.

Name:	Sully -	Reply
Subject:	How to FIX Boat Dock Shock
Date:	7/12/2016 1:33:47 PM

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