| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 9:09:51 AM
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I finally agree with one of Water Watcher's conservative economic statements. On May 2nd he posted: " So who should be imposed the windfall profit tax ... i say the government, not the business that employees people and makes the money."
A windfall tax on business eliminates jobs and is passed on in higher prices. It is an example of taking from the rich and , through income redistribution, giving to the poor. Sort of a Robin Hood approach to bad economic policy. Kinda like Socialism.
Yet, that is exactly what Sarah Palin did as Governor of Alaska. She pushed through a Windfall Tax on oil companies. The State collected $6 billion for the fiscal year that ended June 30. Then, distributed the $1,200 to each resident of Alaska. Her family collected $8,400 based on 7 family members. Now, that is Socialism!
Then, she turned around and asked for $197 million in earmarks from the Federal Government. And she is against earmarks!!!!!!!! Now, that is Socialism.
Imagine, a Republican supporting Socialism and earmarks!!! That should make one drink some Thunderbird rather than a $150 bottle of wine!!!!
I need to order some drugs from Canada. Be back later!!!!!!
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| Name: |
AUCATZ
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| Subject: |
And Yet...
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:24:28 AM
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Obama wants to do the same thing. He wants to give money back to every middle-class family. How is that not the same thing? Government programs to provide money and services could all be considered 'socialism'.
It's all about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Not criticizing BO here, mind you, just saying...
My parents were pretty much grown when the Great Depression occurred. Dad worked with several of the programs that provided work for people then. The difference then was that the gov't created jobs for pay. That's what either party should be trying to do - not give handouts.
Whoever wins the Presidency will be better served trying to control spending, reduce taxes, get us out of Iraq, and stabilize the economy. I don't see another $1200 check to each taxpayer helps much in the long run.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:25:43 AM
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God you are really dump. Your ignorance does not deserve a reply.
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:37:38 AM
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you wrote "God you are really dump."
what is dump??
helps your cause if you spell it correctly...
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:42:09 AM
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Thank you. Far be it from me to call you dumb in case that was what you were thinking. But if that is a label you prefer, wear it with a badge of honor. Good day.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Truth Leaves Him Speechless
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:47:23 AM
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It is amazing how the truth leaves some unable to spell or even respond intelligently. i don't agree with any Windfall Profit tax and disagree with Obama on that issue. It is interesting that the Stimulus Package of 2008 cost around $150 billion while the the Corporate bailout of Wall Street is projected at $700 billion. Guess to bail out Republicans just costs more since they have expensive taste.
Tine to start drinking Thunderbird rather than a $150 bottle of wine
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 10:56:00 AM
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LOL, I just want you to get your message across. It does help to spell it correctly - more impactful...
And the irony is not lost - trying to call someone dumb but not being able to spell it correctly.... too funny...
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 11:33:13 AM
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As a McCain/Palin supporter I am not afraid of facing the truth head on so here goes:
Windfall profit tax: I am not at all a supporter of this approach as any tax takes money away from the productive, wastes a portion on government, and then gives to the unproductive. One mitigating factor that makes it easier for me to swallow Alaska taking this tact is that the oil companies are actually producing revenue and profit using Alaska's natural resources that are theoretically owned by the people of Alaska. If the economic conditions that existed at the time they leased these resources to oil companies I can better understand the state wanting to obtain more economic benefit given the changing circumstances. Still doesn't make me happy but the fact that they actually turned around and returned a significant portion back to the people makes it easier to accept versus what Obama would do which is take the money and create government programs (i.e., waste a lot of money before it gets to the people).
Earmarks: I hate earmarks in any form and fashion and am disgusted by Republicans and Democrats that feed like hogs at this odious trough (love the symbolism?). Having said that, to the extent that earmarks exist I won't for a second throw stones at state-level politicians looking for their share. We hear a lot about Alaska only having 675,000 residents but the fact is the state has a disproportionate positive impact on the U.S economy due to their natural resources.
So, are there inconsistencies in what politicians say and what they do? Absolutely. But the fact is I believe I can expect better and be better able to hold a conservative's feet to the fire on both these issues. Call it picking the lesser of two evils but I will take that rather than accept a politician that promises higher taxes, bigger government and more wastefulness. Obama is just plain wrong on his prescriptions to the economy. By the way, I may be wrong but I believe McCain does not accept earmarks for Arizona. If true, then at least he is one that appears to walk the talk.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You are so wrong
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Date:
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9/25/2008 11:37:21 AM
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if you think the Wall Street types are all Republicans. I refer you to the names Raines and Johnson and Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac (both involved in the Obama campaign). I also refer you to folks like John Corzine. The fact is "Wall Street" is by no means Republican and if you compare wealthy supporters of the Democrat party (too numerous to mention) to Republicans I think you will realize that big money support is equal opportunity.
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
You are so wrong
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Date:
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9/25/2008 12:07:14 PM
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I so agree with you- this mess is on both sides of the aisle and anyone who wants to stand up on their soapbox and claim one side is more to blame than the other is delusional. There is enough of this mess to spread to both the Dems and the Republicans.
What I am sick of is Bush leading by fear rather than information.
The Republicans sponsored the bill to repeal the act that led to this disaster, the Democrats jumped on board and Clinton signed the thing. Bush has sat blindly by for 8 years while this has been festering and is only now sounding the warning bell. November cannot come soon enough.
I am sick of the golden parachute. Only in America can you do a horrible job, run your company in the ground, destroy the future of your workers and then walk away with millions while employees are left empty handed. It is disgraceful.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/25/2008 12:16:19 PM
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It is important to state the facts and be honest. McCain does have a good record on earmarks. His running mate, Palin, does not. She now is TALKING a good game.
It’s one area where McCain can still legitimately claim the maverick label. For years he has taken to the Senate floor and read long lists of ridiculous-sounding earmarks and clashed with Republican earmarkers such as Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Truth Leaves Him Speechless
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Date:
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9/25/2008 12:40:52 PM
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What is Thunderbird?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Bush leading by fear?
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Date:
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9/25/2008 1:01:38 PM
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I guess I don't get this as the problem is with Congress and not the Bush administration. Even Bill Clinton stated that Republicans tried to fix the mess with Fannie and Freddie and Dems in Congress blocked meaningful reform. Placing the blame on Bush is going to get me flamed because I am going to attribute that comment to Bush Derangement Syndrome.....BDS for short.......sorry!
It seems to me that both Bush and McCain are leading the way.
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
Bush leading by fear?
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Date:
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9/25/2008 2:27:51 PM
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Here is what Bush said last night
The government's top economic experts warn that, without immediate action by Congress, America could slip into a financial panic and a distressing scenario would unfold.
More banks could fail, including some in your community.
The stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account.
The value of your home could plummet. Foreclosures would rise dramatically.
And if you own a business or a farm, you would find it harder and more expensive to get credit.
More businesses would close their doors, and millions of Americans could lose their jobs.
Even if you have good credit history, it would be more difficult for you to get the loans you need to buy a car or send your children to college.
And, ultimately, our country could experience a long and painful recession.
so, if this does not pass - while he does not say it will - it "could" - to me that is leading by fear. Pointing out EVERY possible worse thing that could happen.
and yes, I copied and pasted - I wanted to be sure to get the words correct rather than writing down the essence of what others have interpreted his speech to mean.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 2:42:43 PM
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you don't know what the word dump means? So I guess you are dumb ... I thought you were joking.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/25/2008 2:43:48 PM
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I think Bush leads out of fear -- he figures he can scare the public into supporting his plans. Doesn't everyone remember every time his numbers went down in the polls, there would be an announcement that there was an increased threat? Pure BS. I think he's trying to lead out of fear again, but it's not working. He's a lame duck. I honestly believe he is one of the worst Presidents and not just because he is a Republican. I was very relieved to see a Republican after the Clinton mess.
I believe that there is more than enough blame on both sides of the aisle for the current situation. If people don't vote these suckers in Congress out after all this, then we deserve what we get. I also think the White House should be blamed and the Fed. All of these Ivy League educated economists in positions of authority and look where we are.
I think a paid job program working on the US infrastructure would be a good idea. A little before my time, but wasn't there a WPA that did that after the depression?
Problem is, most Americans no longer want to do manual labor. That's why we have all those immigrants taking those jobs.
Taking from the rich and giving to the poor? I'm not sure that taxing large companies or not taxing large companies really makes a difference in the creation of jobs. The truth is companies have come to rely on cheap labor overseas. I know that conventional wisdom says that giving tax incentives to big companies creates jobs, but I'm not sure conventional wisdom still applies.
Ever since the economy started to tank, they say that charitable contributions are way, way down and the food banks aren't getting company donations either.
I certainly don't believe in socialism or communism, but I think those of us that have should feel the moral responsibilty to help others -- either by giving them jobs in our companies or making charitable contributions. Besides, every time they create big new taxes, the lawmakers also leave big gaping loopholes for those wealthy enough to get them.
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 2:53:45 PM
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nice cover
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Palin and Socialism
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Date:
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9/25/2008 6:54:20 PM
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You are too much ... it sounds like you are the one doing the covering now that you see you did not even get the joke to start with and you tried to call me on something when you only displayed your ignorance.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
What if he is right?
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Date:
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9/26/2008 8:34:26 AM
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You call that leading by fear?!?!? I know a lot of very smart people that work in the Wall Street world and I can tell you they are scared to death. These are people that have seen the ups and downs on Wall Street and they see a combination of factors that could spiral out of control if some action is not taken.
You hate Bush so much that you are blinded to the real threats we face. What needs to happen is for Congress to do their job and that takes leadership. You call it fear, I call it telling the American public the truth and trying to lead us through this situation.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/26/2008 8:49:57 AM
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I am only going to respond to one of your points because you desperately need some economic education.
You said, "Taking from the rich and giving to the poor? I'm not sure that taxing large companies or not taxing large companies really makes a difference in the creation of jobs."
This is probably the most incorrect statement I have ever seen you make. Two quick points: First, most new jobs are not created by large companies. They are created by small businesses. As one who runs a "small" business (revenues of around $35MM) I can tell you that tax policy has a profound impact on job creation. It costs me $25K in cash to hire each new employee. If I pay $25K in new taxes that is one job lost. Take billions or trillions out of the hands of firms that create new jobs and you do the math as to how many jobs are lost in this country because of taxes.
Second, CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!!!! All taxes, every single penny is paid by a live human being, not a company. All corporations are simply a conduit for the government to extract taxes from me and you. Think about it, where does the money that a company uses to pay its taxes come from? It comes from the end user of their goods or services. That's me and you, not some ephemeral entity. We pay for goods and services and a portion of that payment goes to pay the company's taxes.
Third, the U.S. already has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. Part of the reason for the movement of jobs overseas is this very fact. As a business owner with over 200 employees in the U.S. and Canada I can tell you that the base salary is only about 75% of what each employee costs. So with such a high corporate tax rate there is a significant incentive to send jobs overseas.
So when you are all for Obama's plan to "tax the rich" and all the other dysfunctional class-envy fear mongering just remember it will cost the economy in lost jobs and you and I will be paying those taxes in the form of higher costs for goods and services.
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| Name: |
NCSue
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/26/2008 9:06:19 AM
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What is class-env?
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| Name: |
NCSue
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/26/2008 9:28:04 AM
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That is supposed to be class envy, too much coffe this morning.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/26/2008 10:10:39 AM
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Class envy as practiced by liberal Democrats is the concept that it is always acceptable to stick it to the wealthy, usually in terms of higher taxation, because they have "won life's lottery" and the rest of you poor saps would be rich too if it weren't for those despicable rich folks unfairly keeping you down. That the wealthy don't really deserve their wealth but obtained it at the expense of the common man and it is government's job to right this alleged wrong.
In practice it is the idea that one of government's jobs is to level the playing field by taking from the "rich" (at the point of a gun) and giving that money to the less fortunate. It is practiced by liberal Democrats with the theory that if we can just get more than 50% of Americans reliant on the government for all or a portion of their well being (income, health care, education, housing ,etc.) then it will ensure their remaining in power in perpetuity.
As Bastiat ingenuously pointed out, "Government is that fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else".
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
What if he is right?
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Date:
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9/26/2008 10:13:42 AM
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yeah, I call it leading by fear when you put out ALL of the worse case scenarios to advance your agenda.
The wall street types running scared? they weren't running scared when they were trading and making huge profits on basically air. they weren't running scared when they took the huge bonuses. they weren't running scared when they created this debacle.
where was Bush 2 years ago when the study came out with these warnings? As long as the fat cats on BOTH sides of the aisle were getting their money and being able to fund campaigns on BOTH sides nobody seemed to give a flip.
I am so sick of how Bush let all of this happen and yes, I blame him. He is the President he is the one who should be held accountable. Again, November cannot come soon enough and as sad as it is that Obama and McCain are the best either party can come up with - I am at least optimistic that neither of them can do a worse job than Bush.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/27/2008 10:38:38 AM
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Thanks for setting me straight on this. I hadn't thought about it from your perspective.
Don't really consider myself to be a liberal demoncrat. My leanings are more Republican, but I do worry about social issues.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
It's a fact
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Date:
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9/27/2008 11:06:09 AM
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I too worry about social issues and I don't like the money we spend on things like Iraq. But I just know in my gut that having Obama as President, Harry Reid as Senate Majority Leader and Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House we will be inundated with significant, negative legislation that will take years, if not decades to rectify.
It took a Jimmy Carter to give us a Ronald Reagan but frankly times are too scary (economically and with Islamo-fascism) to elect Obama, who we know so little about because the press has abrogated their responsibility. Call it divided government or whatever, but the stakes are too high to take such a risk and the Democrat Party failed in giving us a reasonable alternative.
McCain has all sorts of faults, and Palin brings her own set of issues (some good and some bad), but the one thing I don't doubt is his courage, his conviction and the fact that he loves our country. I think Obama also loves our country but his left-wing beliefs are just wrong.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
What if he is right?
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Date:
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9/28/2008 8:35:31 AM
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On blaming Bush we just have to agree to disagree. Your anger at Bush is blinding you to the truth about Obama (you are not alone in my view). You will lose him in January 2009 as a focal point of your anger although let me make a prediction and we'll see if you have the temerity to acknowledge at some point that I was right.
If Obama wins then anything negative that happens during his administration will be blamed on either 1) the legacy of Bush; 2) Republicans in Congress; or 3) both. Let's see how eager you will be to blame Obama for ANYTHING or whether your "man at the top gets the blame" philosophy gets tossed aside casually. And the media will provide you all the cover you need because they are part of his campaign and wil do anything to protect themselves from accepting blame for their role in the election process.
I find it ironic that the debate about the media being liberal is finally over (after 20 years of inane denial). They have given up all pretense of objectivity in favor of an unknown chralatan that I believe has the potential to be a disaster for this country. I hope to be proven wrong about how he will be if he wins the White House but I seriously doubt it.
I am going to be just like every other small business owner and plan for retraction due to even higher taxes and regulation by government. The sad part is I will do OK but the middle calss people that work for me (and by the way I have gone from 10 to 200 employees during the allegedly "disasterous" Bush years) are the ones that will lose their jobs. Americans never seem to be able to grasp that we tried this with Jimmy Carter and got stagflation and a national malaise.
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| Name: |
want2beonlake
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| Subject: |
What if he is right?
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Date:
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9/29/2008 8:23:24 AM
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Again, he is far from "My man" - trust me. I have said before and will say again, in all probability I will vote for McCain because I really do not want one party running the whole show and I am fearful of what will happen if Obama wins and house/senate are dems.
I just also think that McCain is shooting himself in the foot. Yes, Palin had her upside but that seems to be fading and those that previous were fawning all over her are now cringing when she speaks (or so it seems).
She is a huge concern to me and if McCain can find a way to pull this out, I just pray he stays healthy for 4 years...
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