Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/12/2021 11:58:46 PM

You wanted me to start a thread so I will...not so much because you asked, but because it is something I think is needed.

If I were "King for a Day" I would mandate that all utilities designated as critical....water, electricity, gas, rail, internet, and fuel (i.e., petroleum), etc...be required to have an approved IT backup/alternate site strategy that could neutralize an occurence like that experienced by Colonial Pipeline.  Be it backups of data and software or even a "hot" or "warm" alternate processing capability, they would be required to put a little thought, effort, and yes, dollars into ensuring they could continue operations under cyber attack conditions.  It isn't rocket science and I fear that many such utilities project the future based on the past and, as such, are woefully unprepared to deal with an attack such as the ransomware attack on Colonial.

Folks, this is not in the least a political issue but one of common sense and survival.  We know this group was able to bring Colonial to its knees.  What scares me is what we don't know....such as how many attacks have been successful but the atackers chose to back off before being discovered and put that attack in their kit-bag of methods to use when they really do want to do us great harm.  It is a real threat and deserves immediate and unwavering attention.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	5/13/2021 12:47:02 AM (updated 5/13/2021 1:12:06 AM)

The why is not important....that you are is nice to see.

What always amazes me is that after a hack, the resonse is we are making changes so it doesn't happen again. You are in IT security  why don't they spend the money and strenghten their systems before the attack????? Do they operate under the assumption that they have all the security necessary to prevent a hack or s it a budget issue? After a hack, every company hacked suddenly finds the money for tighter security.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 8:18:14 AM

I can't speak for Colonial, although they are a client of ours on the environmental side, but we have off-site cloud-based backups of everything on our servers.  I can't imagine that they don't as well.  I agree that they should have an emergency system in place that is remote from the current one but I suspect it is hugely complicated to transfer all users over to the mirror system (i.e., not just a matter of flipping a switch) but I don't know enough about it to be sure.  What they did say is they shut down the pipelines out of fear the hackers could access the control systems and do even more damage.  That seems prudent to me.

These hackers are working 24/7 all over the internet trying to gain access to business systems for ransom.  What would you bet they got in because one of the employees fell for a pfishing email?  I get the constantly even with our sophisticated spam filter systems.  What I like to tell people is you think this is bad, see what happens if we get hit with an EMP.  It will be mass chaos and make sitting in line for gas look like child's play.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	5/13/2021 9:19:05 AM

Not sure about the commercial side but Government systems problems come primarily from a lack of concern and unwillingness to exert the effort, or said differently "it is too hard, so if I ignore it maybe I won't get hit".  More and more they are forced to address it, though.  The Government uses NIST's Risk Management Framework, which is a systematic and very labor intensive approach to identifying what needs protection and setting about ensuring the system is configured to give it the best chance possible to thwart any attack.  While it keeps consultants like me employed, in my opinion it is not the best use of taxpayer dollars.  We should be spending more time, effort, and money on penetration testing, where "red teams" consisting of government employees and/or contractors actually go out and try to break into the systems, essentially doing the same thing hackers are doing.  That would identify the most likely vulnerabilities that hackers might attack and thus allow us to better focus remediation efforts and not waste taxpayer dollars on useless administrivia. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 9:31:34 AM

Phising emails and "social engineering" are troublesome issues in that we the humans are a very weak link in system security.  One thing that I always recommend to everyone who will listen is to NOT click on a hyperlink in an email, especially if the email is from a stranger, and to even not click on a link in an email from a known person without separate confirmation the link is safe.  Too many times hackers will break into an unsuspecting person's email account and start sending phishing emails to everyone on that user's address list.

Plainly stated, an EMP burst would send us back to the dark ages.  There have been strings in the past on this forum discussing EMP and its effects, and makes it imperative that we prevent rogue actors like Iran from getting the capability (weapon and delivery method) to execute an EMP attack.  

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 9:40:16 AM

Do we have the capabilty to execute an EMP attack in retaliation?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 9:58:43 AM

I'm sure we can and that our nuclear facilities are hardened against an EMP.....at least I sure I hope so.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 10:19:28 AM

While I can't predict how well our EMP hardening would work, if it did I would imagine that option would be available.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 10:27:26 AM

Have you seen the techniques for hardening a backup generator from an EMP?  My thinking is even if it works where will you get the gasoline to run it and if it runs on natural what makes you think that will still be working.  And everything that is electrical will be fried anyway so why would you need it.  Think Armageddon.  

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 10:51:25 AM

I sure hope Bruce has the Forum hardened against an EMP attack.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Excellent suggestion Mr H
Date:	5/13/2021 11:01:25 AM (updated 5/13/2021 11:10:21 AM)

I know zilch about EMP bursts and Faradaye cages and not much about my laptop computer, but your suggestion seems more than reasonable considering how dependent we are on digital technology today.  It makes perfect sense from the viewpoints of the economy, national security, consumer confidence and citizen comfort.  It is certainly a worthwhile Federal Regulation which should be instituted by executive order ASAP.  Other than the delays and gnashing of teeth due to cost and complexity, I can see only one drawback...it is the sort of thing that the forum’s favorite ex-President (still president for some of the real nuts) would take out his big fat Sharpie and “executive order” out of existence on day one if he every gets back in office!  Perhaps it is a bit political since it would have to be an enforceable Fed Reg in order to be universally accepted in a private owner/free market economy (see TX legislation “encouraging” utilities to upgrade their infrastructure to survive weather extremes).

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 11:01:54 AM

One answer is to protect electronics within a Faraday Cage, something that is trivial to do for small items but becomes exponentially more difficult as the item(s) to be protected grow in size and/or number.  You can't wrap a car or a house in aluminum foil, and like you say, even if one has a generator that was kept enclosed in a Faraday Cage and survived the EMP, there would soon be no gas to run it. 

My concern is that someone who is properly prepared and had the basic necessities would be attacked by those not prepared as soon as that word got out.  There would be roving bands, almost surely armed, intent on taking whatever they could to just survive. The food supply would dry up as well - or be taken by those strong enough to take it from those who have it but aren't prepared to defend themselves.

It would take years to recover the most basic society, and even that would depend on help from nations in the parts of the earth that weren't affected by the EMP (a single EMP burst over the US probably wouldn't affect most of Asia).  And regarding the question about a retalitory EMP strike, what leader would order such a strike?  Does it make sense to destroy the rest of civilization as we know it?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	LOL....
Date:	5/13/2021 11:03:54 AM

That would truly be a crisis....what will we do with all our free time since no one will be able to go anywhere especially to work.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Destroy Another Country
Date:	5/13/2021 11:40:20 AM

My understanding the countries that have the capability are Russia, China, N. Korea and Iran would like to have it. I would support a retalitory attack if we were capable. That maybe the only reason not to use it against us. I assume the capabilty exists from one or more of our oversea bases or submarines.

I think I need more ammunition and some sand bags to protect us. This is serious stuff. No food, no toilet paper, no electricity, no water....no gas, just like billions and billions of years ago.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Destroy Another Country
Date:	5/13/2021 11:56:47 AM

Problem is that you can't just attack a single or multiple select countries.  It doesn't happen that way.  The more correct term is HEMP, or High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse, and to be effective the burst has to be high above the earth.  The effects form a cone that results in the most intense pulse directly beneath it but that pulse reaches far beyond what is directly below it.  The effects on the fringes of that cone might be less, but if a location is within line of sight of the burst it will be affected by the EMP.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 1:45:13 PM

You are much more current in the game than I am, but the threat is real and sticking our heads in the sands is not the answer.  I think a lot of companies ignore or minimize the problem, because they believe that it is too expensive to fix; and there is no permanent fix that you can do and then just forget about it.  My experience with US companies is that they are either terribly naieve or they're just wishin and hopin that they won't fall victim.  As far as EMP, I doubt the majority of Americans even know what that is, or the havoc that would come about if we were attacked. 

Did anyone else see the article the other day when Mark Milley, the Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, talked about the world being in an unsettled state?  He wasn't kidding or overstating the problem

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	You just couldn't stand it, could you?
Date:	5/13/2021 2:31:56 PM

You are so obsessed with Donald Trump that you try to inject him into something that he has absolutely nothing to do with.  A new low for you.  

Goofy, this maniac is a good part of the reason I took to a lurking role.  There is no such thing as a sane conversation.  Nothing but Trump, Trump, Trump.  It gets really old.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 2:42:50 PM

I actually don't believe they ignore it at all.  Every multi-national we work with has sophisticated IT systems.  These hackers are very smart and there are tons of them working all over the world 24/7 trying to get into systems.  Its a numbers game for them and every once in a long while they find a crack like they did with Colonial.  I can assure you most big companies are attacked hundreds of times a day and spend huge amounts of money to try to prevent them so there is no head sticking in the sand.  It's sort of like any terrorist attack, you can foil them a hundred times and they only need to succeed once.  Given how pervasive the issue is I am surprised at how little success the hackers have.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	You just couldn't stand it, could you?
Date:	5/13/2021 6:00:03 PM

Which post are you referring to? There is no reference to Trump in this thread.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	You just couldn't stand it, could you?
Date:	5/13/2021 6:41:19 PM

Don't be obtuse.  Archie's post included the following: "I can see only one drawback...it is the sort of thing that the forum’s favorite ex-President (still president for some of the real nuts) would take out his big fat Sharpie and “executive order” out of existence on day one if he every gets back in office! "

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/13/2021 11:23:29 PM

I tried to find the article but was unsuccessful.  Can you provide a link?  I would like to get his perspective.

Thanks!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	OK, Here it is, Goofy
Date:	5/14/2021 6:48:41 AM

I couldn't get the link to transfer.  Google - Mark Milley - world unsettled.