| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 2:59:51 PM
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I just love that when we had one decent up dy in the stock market all the kool-aid drinking Obama supporters are out there saying how great his policies are and the market is rising. But yesterday we finished down 115 points and today we are down another 80 right now .... but they are all quit. Gee!
After the market declined more than it ever has post presidential election ... but the liberals were saying that was not Obama. Then it reaches a decline not seen since the 30's and we get a bit up an upturn and they are all ready to give Obama credit. When it never should have declined as much as it did if he was not preaching gloom and doom to get his socialist agenda passed and he was really focused on what was best for the economy.
Now last night you saw how Obama wants to defend his deficits and projections that he will double the national debt in his first term.
What a disgrace to our country.
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| Name: |
Lady
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 3:33:37 PM
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Gallup! Today's Gallup Poll shows Obama has a 63% approval rating and 27% disapproval. Little did I know that 63% of the US must be made up of liberals.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 4:24:18 PM
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I guess that explains why 63% of the children of today are medicated instead of disciplined and empowered instead of responsible.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Real Clear Politics Summary
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Date:
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3/25/2009 5:10:55 PM
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From the RCP website which creates a summary poll number on a number of areas and is probably better than cherry picking. So here's the latest:
The Messiah Approve is 61% Disapprove 31%. More telling is his numbers are dropping although it is clear that he still has good approval ratings. Note his approval ratings at this point in his presidency are lower than W and Jimmy Carter at the same time and we know where there numbers ended up so I would take no solace in the current numbers.
Congress Approval is 36%, Disapprove 54%. This applies to both Dems and Republicans but since Dems control congress and are making all the decisions it reflects more on them.
Country in the Right Direction 36% and Wrong Track 57%. Not a good sign for the Dem controlled White House, Senate and House.
Recall BO is not up for reelection until 2012 but the House and certain Senate seats are up in 2010. This is the reason for my optimism that the American public will punish Democrats for over-reaching and a general desire for divided government. I still believe the Messiah understands this and is trying to do as much damage in the next two years.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Real Clear Politics Summary
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Date:
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3/25/2009 8:01:45 PM
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When the market was going down the conservative cool aid crowd showed there partisan stripes and their stupidity by blaming Obama. When it goes up the liberal counterparts to the above demonstrate they are just as partisan and stupid by giving Obama credit. Markets go up and down and only in rare instances do political types have any long term influence one way or the other. Its the "perception" of the ecomomy stupid!
As for congressional ratings polls----Mid to upper thirties is two to three times what it was in the months before the election. I suggest M-man check out pollingreport.com to check out not just overall ratings, but compare the polling of congressional Republicans vs Democrats. The Repubs "just don't get no respect".
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 8:35:24 PM
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Did you know that George Bush had higher approval rating at the same time than Obama and that did not mean everyone was a smart republican. I can't help that people lose site of reality and make dumb decisions ... but after they live through it for a while they get smart again and put real leadership back in charge.
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| Name: |
Lady
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 8:51:48 PM
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".....but after they live through it for a while they get smart again and put real leadership back in charge."
Yes, after living through Bush, most of us we got smart and voted Obama in.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Thanks for the lecture
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Date:
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3/25/2009 8:57:03 PM
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Architect: For the last 8 years we have heard from liberals that every bad thing that happens is GW's fault. Since taking office the Messiah and his minions have blamed GW for every problem they are facing even when incontrovertible evidence shows the economic problems are primarily a result of Democrat politicians actions. So now suddenly nothing that happens in the economy or the markets that can be attributed to the President.....sorry, but you libs can't have it both ways.
As for the markets, I would hope you understand that movements in the market are a result of a future expectation of economic and individual performance. That is why the markets move up and down with good or bad economic news, good or bad pronouncements from government officials, etc. If you think that is wrong then you have had your head in the sand or up your backside your entire life and I would like to sell you some ocean front property in Arizona. Is the Messiah responsible for every movement in the market? Of course not. Can he both in the short term with his statements and in the long term with his policies impact the markets? Absolutely! You need to read The Forgotten Man so you can learn something about whether FDR-like political acts can impact the market and you will see your "rare" statement is just plain wrong.
With regard to your comment on the polls, I never denied the unpopularity of Republicans in Congress which is frankly largely influenced by their abandoning conservative principles. But you are acting just like Lady and are cherry picking numbers. I presented an overall picture that a majority still approve of the job of the Messiah but the numbers are dropping and are lower than two recent Presidents that ended their terms with very low numbers. That is a fact whether you like it or not. Congress which is clearly run by Democrats is still very unpopular and as I said in an earlier post Republicans are tied or lead in the generic poll question. All this is reason to be optimistic.......certain of pending change? No. Optimistic.....yes. That was all I said and I stand by that statement and given a mosaic of polling data it is reasonable to be optimistic. You can be whatever you want to be.
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Who is the "real" leadership? As far as I can see there is no clear frontrunner or leader in the Republican party. Just putting any old Repub in there isn't going to guarentee leadership. I expect the Dems are going to lose a lot of seats in Congress. So many of them have proved themselves to be fools.
It doesn't surprise me at all that Congress has such a low approval rating. None of them have done anything to help the situation. These showboat hearings just disgust me. As my grandfather used to say "Closing the barn door after the horse has left". Putting people on the grill, while amusing, and sometimes informative, doesn't really accomplish much. For all the much ballihooed grilling of the car company executives, the industry is still on its butt. Can you tell I'm down on Congress?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The Good News
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Date:
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3/25/2009 9:00:15 PM
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is that the market closed up. Tomorrow? Who knows...
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Voted for Obama? Yes
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Date:
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3/25/2009 9:00:40 PM
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Smart? Not even close. I am curious what exactly the Messiah has accomplished since taking office. If you are for socialism I am sure you are all excited. For those of us who understand what the founding fathers intended we would think of another adjective for those who were duped into voting for BO.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You've Gone too Far
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Date:
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3/25/2009 9:17:07 PM
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You don't have a fricking clue what the founding fathers intended. You are just another pompous individual who likes to pretend they know everything.
Honestly, is there no end to your pomposity? You've really got to stop believing your own PR.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You've Gone too Far
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Date:
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3/25/2009 9:27:10 PM
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Actually I've read Federalist papers, analyses of those papers, history books about the founding fathers and what they wrote, believed and intended. I carry the U.S. Constitution in my brief case and regularly read analyses from the Federalist Society. In short, I do my homework, I read, I inform myself, I make a concerted effort to continue to learn.
You may not like someone better informed than you especially if it doesn't fit your warped world view. If I come off as pompous it is only because having a discussion with someone that believes so much that just isn't true makes me look like a genius. Face it Hound, you never respond with anything but nasty comments or opinions based on who knows what. You never have any facts to support your beliefs, it is all just emotion and wishing things to be true that aren't.
It all gets so tedious......but it is entertaining and so easy........
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I too have Read the Federalist
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Date:
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3/25/2009 9:58:46 PM
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Papers, I participated in an Aspen Institute seminar on the subject, and I too have a pocket version of the Constitution which I have read; no, studied with a Constitutional Scholar as part of my executive training. I hate to tell you those little pocket constitutions are a dime a dozen. You do realize I was a Government Executive? I attended the Federal Executive Institute, and am a graduate of their Leadership for a Democratic Society seminar and well as participating in several Aspen Institute seminars. If you don't know what the Aspen Institute is, I suggest you google it. So don't you lecture to me,you little twerp. I've discussed these things with people a lot smarter than you.
You make it clear that you have no respect for anyone else's views and you think you can't learn anything from ayone else. And that's what make you... let's just say, less than intelligent.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Sticks and stones
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Date:
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3/25/2009 10:09:32 PM
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may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Now I am a little twerp? Gosh, you are mean spirited for a liberal weenie. Stick it my ear, little twerp, blah, blah, blah.... I thought liberals were all for tolerance and different points of view......
I must really be getting under your skin for you to resort to childish name calling. Facts and logic Hound are inconvenient to emotive liberals and you are on emotion overdrive. Drink a warm glass of milk and get some sleep, you are getting downright testy :-)
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The Aspen Institute
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Date:
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3/25/2009 10:34:29 PM
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I am glad you suggested I google it as I frequent the Federalist Society. After doing some research it explains a lot about your warped views of what the founding fathers intended for this country. The institute was actually run for a time by a CNN exec. Trustees include Madeleine Albright (Halfbright as I like to call her), cosmetic moguls and Saudi Princes? Just who I want to learn about the Constitution from....not! They even go out of their way to say they are not liberal.....methinks thou doth protest too much.....especially with all their financial woes. That about says it all for any Conservative.
Mountain Air
CNN's head decamps for the Aspen Institute. So what's the Aspen Institute?
By MARK LASSWELL
Walter Isaacson's letter to colleagues on Jan. 13 came as a surprise, and not just for the obvious reason. He wrote that he was quitting as chief executive of the CNN News Group. That was news enough. But he added that he was quitting to become president of the Aspen Institute. The Aspen Institute?
Mr. Isaacson described his new job as "a perfect match because it offers a chance to do things I truly love or want to do: writing, exploring ideas, engaging in policy issues, and seeking solutions to social and international problems." Sounds nice enough.
But just as the former Time magazine managing editor found that his considerable skills weren't as well suited to the role of TV news executive as he might have imagined--Fox News Channel is now picking its teeth, having eaten CNN's lunch--the Aspen Institute could prove to be an awkward fit as well.
A place that describes itself as "a global forum for leveraging the power of leaders to improve the human condition" might seem ideal for a big-media refugee interested in pondering really big ideas. What the Aspen Institute may really require is less the author of "Kissinger: A Biography" than the sort of manager sought by many beleaguered nonprofit institutions nowadays: the glorified fundraiser and publicist.
Mr. Isaacson is taking over Aspen at a time when it faces ebbing interest in its programs, a straitened financial outlook and the aftermath of an interim president's rancorous departure last fall. That, plus the fact that when Mr. Isaacson's job news swept through the chattering class, the institute's reputation in Washington was so negligible that many chatterers were more likely to be familiar with the Aspen Institute of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery.
Mr. Isaacson's new employer could probably do with a facelift. Walter Paepcke, chairman of the Container Corporation of America, founded the Aspen Institute in Colorado in 1950 as a gathering place for business leaders, artists and philosophers eager to contemplate society's underlying values. The institute's signature was, and remains, its summertime executive seminars, which are intended to inspire leadership by studying the works of, say, Aristotle, John Locke and Martin Luther King. And a little institute-sponsored river-rafting helps clear the cobwebs. Over the past half-century, Aspen has developed a second area of emphasis on policy, moved its base to Washington and opened offices in Berlin, Tokyo and elsewhere.
Certainly the institute has been able to attract big names to its board. Current trustees include Madeleine Albright, cosmetics mogul Leonard Lauder and Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar Bin Sultan. But despite the institute's heavy-hitting friends, it has seen happier times financially. In 2001, total revenue fell 29% from the year before, to $37 million from $52 million. Unaudited figures indicate that its net assets will drop for the second year in a row in 2002. Still, chief financial officer Amy Margerum says that trustees and funders "rallied" in 2002, "and I think they're going to rally even more with Mr. Isaacson onboard. The board's really excited about it."
What is all this money used for? Well, there are roundtables like "Comprehensive Community Initiatives." Or seminars like "Justice and Society." That seminar, the institute announces, "brings together participants from diverse backgrounds to discuss the meaning of justice and how a just society ought to deal with issues such as private conduct and public mores, the extent of entitlements, the breakdown of long-established hierarchies of race and gender"--among other things, of course. A policy program called "Ethical Globalization Initiative: A Human-Rights Based Approach to Globalization" seeks "to integrate human rights norms and standards into a more ethical globalization process and to support local and national human rights capacity building efforts."
Hard to believe, but despite that sort of rhetorical enticement, the institute's seminars ($7,500 per person for a week-long executive session) have lost some of their allure in recent years. Elmer Johnson, the former interim president, says one of his main jobs was rebuilding attendance when he took over in 1999: "Seminar enrollments had dropped off pretty precipitously," he says. "The picture was looking very bad." Mr. Johnson, a prominent Chicago lawyer, "abruptly resigned" in August, the Washington Post reported at the time, "amid mounting budget problems" and conflicts with the institute's board over his "decision to run the think tank from Chicago."
It's an indication of how little prominence the Aspen Institute has in Washington that the Post would call it a "think tank," as if it were a hotbed of research and publication like Brookings and Cato. News articles after Mr. Isaacson's announcement did the same thing. "Calling it a think tank is not the way to go," Mr. Isaacson says. "It's fundamentally an educational institution that promotes leadership based on values."
Despite what would appear to be a sobering budget and a need for the Aspen Institute to gets its message out at least well enough for reporters to know how to describe it, Mr. Isaacson is happy with the status quo. "You might have to raise the visibility in order to get more people to donate to it, if that's what you wanted, but that's not a need at the moment," he says. The "deep and loyal community" of Aspen supporters will insure its smooth running, he believes.
For the time being, then, the Aspen Institute will remain best-known for the role played by its 1,100-acre campus on the Wye river in Queenstown, Md., in two bittersweet episodes during the Clinton administration: as the site of the Wye accord reached by Yasser Arafat and Benjamin Netanyahu in 1998 and as a posh holding pen for Elian Gonzalez during the Cuban child's adventure in the U.S. legal system three years ago. The Clintonian whiff of the place is in keeping with Aspen's reputation as a way-station for liberal wonks in resortwear.
Abigail Thernstrom, the author and U.S. civil-rights commissioner, found that during her service on the institute's Domestic Strategy Group in 1992-97, the make-up of the twice-yearly gatherings "was at least two-to-one liberal." Not to worry, though, Ms. Thernstrom says, because "I never had a sense that we were engaged in important work." Mr. Isaacson rejects the liberal label and says that Aspen is "bi-partisan and institutionally neutral, but tends to try to find resolutions based on balancing conflicting ideas and values." The institute's roots, he notes, are in "that sort of moderate Republican businessman type."
Mr. Isaacson may like the Aspen Institute pretty much just the way it is, but his predecessor expects that the place will change--for the better--under his stewardship. "It sounds to me," says Mr. Johnson, "like Walter Isaacson's going to bring a lot of magic to the plac
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Mistake
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:02:44 PM
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Never underestimate your "enemy".
You obviously did. MM is obviously an educated adversary - at least debate-wise.
Curiosity question. Were you an SES-grade Civil Servant?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Thanks for the lecture
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:03:07 PM
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You're welcome. Most of us know that everything bad that happened in the last 8 years was not W's fault But, those of us who aren't blinded by complete and unbending partisanship, also know that some of it was. Everything good that happens over the next four years will not be obama's doing but some of it will.
Did you even read my comments re: the markets? I believe I said essentially the same thing. I think "result of a future expectation of economic and individual performance" means "perception of the economy". Martini Man just needs more words to say it. Come to think of it, based on Martini Man's interpretation of how political statements can impact the market short term, maybe we can thank Obama for the performance of the Dow over the last 3 weeks.
Martini Man says the low approval for Republicans is because the abandoned their conservative principals. Well it's hard to see how the Republicans could move more Neaderthal right than they have since Jan. 20. Why, then, aren't their polls starting to inch up at least a teeny weeny bit?-----They are actually going down! The Democrats are in fact going up because the voter's perceive them to be a bit closer to the sane middle.
Now, as for this financial/economic crisis being completely the doing of the Democrats who have controlled congress for a grand total of 2 of the last 14 years, have you ever heard of Phil Gramm?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:21:10 PM
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My condolances to Water Watcher, Martini Man, Summer Lover et al on the Dow's 90 point rise today. 2 out of 3 up, who's counting?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:22:17 PM
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My condolances to Water Watcher, Martini Man, Summer Lover et al on the Dow's 90 point rise today. 2 out of 3 up, who's counting?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
You've Gone too Far
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:31:48 PM
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I wonder if Martini Man is as much a horse's behind in person as on this forum? O course, when you are among the world's smartest humans I guess a little arrogance is understandable.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Wow
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Date:
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3/25/2009 11:38:18 PM
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90 points. Where are we compared to 1/20/2009?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Here is your answer
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:16:58 AM
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While I was not a die hard McCain supporter (actaully wanted Ramney)I think he would be doing a far better job than Obama and team. The one thing with republicans they bring in the best and brightest minds.
In my original post I was referring to Reagan saving the country from the disaster of the Carter years ... and we are headed back there and then some. The next great crisis (in my hummble opinion) is going to be a curreny crisis. The Chinese want to send us a message that we are no longer the power we once were and will try to force us to a world currency. To do so they will start to pull dollars out of treasuries, which is funding Obama's spending spree. that is going to send interest rates sky rocketing and inflation will follow. We won't be able to just print more money as Obama thinks as it will be worthless. If this happens, we will have another depression and may not come out of it. But I think Obama is on a very dangerous course.
One thing I will add to the debate on the constitution, is what I think the founding fathers meant by the right to bear arms. I don't feel it has anything to do with gun laws directly. I think they were referring to the peoples right to take back government in an extreme case. We are getting close to that extreme case.
As for who will emerge as the next republican leader ... I don't know yet. But I do know anyone will be better than the disaster we have now. We can disagree about Bush, because I think he did a great job not only in national security, but remember Clinton left office with a severer recession with the tech bubble collapse and then 9/11 hit. It was through swift economic policy changes that pulled us out and prevented something far worse. He took a lot of heat from dems about unemployment, etc ... but his programs worked and with far less debt and expansion of government. I think Bush and the republicans spent way too much, but it pales in comparrision to Obama.
Lastly, tax cuts do work. Supply side does work. It creates "real" growth" and increases real revenue to the government. This whole thing about the top 5% paying their fair share is BS. They already pay 70% of all the taxes. What beyond that is more fair?
I will close with a bumper sticker I recently saw: Obama: "Spread my work ethic, not my wealth !"
That says it all. People have more pride from earning, not handouts. and those that just want to depend on the government have not experience the pride of earning and bettering themselves. Most on this board that are clearly against Obama, have a little money they earned through hard work. I came from a very poor family, was only one of 4 kids to go to college and paid every cent myself through loans and part time jobs. Do I want the government taking more from me than I already have to pay so someone that was not willing to put in the effort and sacrifice and take the risks I took to get what I have ... not a chance.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The Good News
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:26:56 AM
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yes it did have a late day rally. I guess you have to give Obama credit for that. :) The reality is we are in a technical trading range. As long as S&P does not break 801.5 to the down side we are ok for now, and it would have to close above 835 to get to another range higher.
I do believe the market is going to recover from the Obama sell off over the next 12-18 months and get back to the 10,000 range of where it was when he got elected. The key will be beyond that. It's high was 14,000 hit under Bush. Under Clinton the market hit a record and then collasped with the tech bubble, but Bush's economic policies created growth and jobs and the market followed along to a new high. The same under Reagan.
So if the market does not surpass 14,000 under Obama, I would say his economic policies are a failure. Since the market is american business, which is jobs and the economy. If they are not growing and prospering, then his policies are not working under capitalism. You may say his growth in government is a success, but that would be solcialism now wouldn't it.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
2nd Day Down, who's counting
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:36:06 AM
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Very happy on the rise. Obama is my hero ... ready my other post. Obama has a long long way to go. Under the last 4 presidents, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 .... the market has hit a new high under each. I hope Obama's economic policies create sufficient growth and economic expansion that will be reflected in the stock market since that is american business and a reflection of their strength and the economy in gerneral.
Don't forget the market has fallen more under Obama in teh first two month in point and percent than any other president post election. That does not say a lot about investors view his policies will work.
So once the DOW gets back to 10,000 it will be back to the level when he got elected. Then it needs to surpass 14,000 to take credit that his policies were successful.
I hope it happens ... I want to spend some money but won't do it at these depressed levels.
Oh I forgot, he will just tax whatever i earn anyway so I will never be able to spend money which will help other individuals like contractors. Of couse taking more money from higher levels does not hurt the average person and has no impact on job creation or the economy.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Another name caller...sigh
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:41:40 AM
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Must be a common trait of liberals that when they can't compete in the arena of ideas they have to resort to childish name calling. Stick it in my ear, little twerp, master of universe, arrogance and now horse's behind.....
Look, I am more than happy to admit when I am wrong and have done so on numerous occasions. And when Hound or GF post something I agree with I go out of my way to point out my agreement. I also don't know everything but I do know a lot about what informs my conservative views and I do my homework. To posters who just want to spout things they believe but aren't true I simply correct them. If that's arrogance so be it. I would LOVE to have a serious debate with someone with a liberal ideology but it always devolves into name calling because they simply cannot compete in an arena that is based on undeniable and inconvenient truths, they get frustrated, they call you names and so on.
And yes, when I have had discussions with liberals and they resort to arguing from a fact-free perspective and I respond with facts and logic it usually devolves into name calling. Having said that I have had a number of discussions with liberals that are well informed and have found them intellectually stimulating even when I end up disagreeing with their views. At least they have some rationale for what they believe.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Another name caller...sigh
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:59:50 AM
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Regarding Martini Man's general disposition: See what I mean!
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
This Thread Is Priceless....
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Date:
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3/26/2009 8:56:38 AM
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and only confirms that when Liberals can't compete on an intellectual level.... duck, here comes the name calling. "Don't have a fricking clue, pompous, stick it in your ear, less than intellectual, horses behind." Keep em coming Hound. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. And if Hound isn't confirmation enough, enter the "Architect." Let's see what other childish insults he can contribute. This is very entertaining.
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A real legend in his own mind.
I have always found that truly intelligent people are interested in what other people think. MM just dismisses anyone who who doesn't agree with his "master of the universe" view of the world.
Just be glad that he's only here on this forum and you don't have to deal with him in real life. He must be a real joy to be around.
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You didn't answer the question. Who is the "real leadership" that the Republicans can offer up? If an election were being held next year, who could the Republicans offer up as "real leadership"? I think there are a few contenders, but who do you think they are? I'm interested in what you think.
GWB is history. We agree to disagree about his leadership. History will bear one of us out. Clinton is history. Carter is history.
Still not convinced that tax cuts will work in this situation. Isn't Obama giving a tax cut to the middle class? GWB put a tax cut in place (the one that is expiring) but we're still where we are.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I don't
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:27:30 AM
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give Obama credit for the rise in the markets. There have been some more favorable numbers coming out in terms of the housing market. Not that they are really 'favorable' but more positive than what they expected.
But, my question is this -- yes the market increased to 14,000 during the Bush years, but was it real or just a bubble? Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to see the market back up there.
Something I heard yesterday that I found an interesting idea -- why are we trying to recreate a bubble? Is that realistic? Or should we be trying to create a more sustainable economy?
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| Name: |
Council Roc Doc
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| Subject: |
Here is your answer
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:29:54 AM
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I like this bumper sticker:
'Frustrate a liberal, achieve, succeed and be happy!'
CRD
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
If you get a chance
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:31:37 AM
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Go look at the comments by Dr. Brezinski (I'm probably slaughtering the spealling. He was the national security advisor). I think he had some very interesting thoughts today about the economy and social responsibility. I found myself nodding in agreement.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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Here is your answer
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:32:55 AM
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Okay. But who is the "real leadership" the Republicans can offer up if an election were held next year?
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| Name: |
Council Roc Doc
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Here is your answer
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:42:49 AM
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You know Hound, you may laugh, and that is your right, but I think we need individuals in government that have distinct, thoughtful, innovative ideas on how to remake government and get it back to working efficiently. Newt brings more to the table in the form of fresh ideas than any Democrat or Repub I know or listen to. For that I give him credit, his thought process is brilliant. Put someone like that at the forefront and negotiate left or right from there. I would rather see new ideas proposed than the option of throwing money at every conceivable problem and calling that innovation and change. There are brilliant people out here, it's just that the game of politics has become so depressing no one is willing to seek the call of public service who is worth a da***n
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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I don't
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Date:
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3/26/2009 11:29:52 AM
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You can ask that question about the market everytime it reaches a new high. Keep in mind that the higher it goes, each 1,000 point increment is a smaller percent.
I would argue 14,000 was not only real but under valued. If you look at historic PE ratio's the market was not at all over valued at 14,000. Maybe the false growth in housing created by the democrats with the CRA and the push of sub primes under Clinton, contributed to earnings of business and job growth that made PE artifically low. But we do know that until the credit mess started to come to light, we had 6 strong years of economic growth and job creation.
I have not heard one Obama program that is pro business that will create private sector jobs and growth in the economy. Everything has been anti business with higher taxes and more government intervention and regulation.
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water_watcher
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I don't
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Date:
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3/26/2009 11:35:50 AM
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One last point ... Bush did not cause the credit crisis or did free enterprise. It was government that caused the credit crisis through mandates on banks to issue more loans to those that should not have had loans ... they fined those that did not issue enough. Did business exploit the government mandates started under Carter and expanded under Clinton .... yes. But when many republicans started to see the problem developing, they could not get cooperation of democrats to prevent it from getting out of control. Instead, the dems beat up on the republicans for even suggesting we restrict loans and have higher approval levels since it would "hurt" those that needed those loans.
I wonder if it would have hurt more not to have gotten the loan or when their house got foreclosed and they were put on the street.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
But WW
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Date:
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3/26/2009 11:45:08 AM
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Right now if Judd Gregg ran I would vote for him. He got a lot of my respect when he quit the Obama administration. Since then I have seen him interviewed many times. Second to him would be Ramney and Gingrich. I think Newt is a brilliant clear thinker. I was disappointed he did not enter the last race. He thinks quickly and an excellent debater. But from a public appeal, I think Judd Gregg from New hampshire is the new shining start.
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I would agree. Saw him on Morning Joe this morning and I thought he had a lot of common sense.
Newt... I don't know, Newt's been around for a long time. I have to say that he has spoken more rationally in recent years.
I think Rommney has already been proven unelectable.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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Here is your answer
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Date:
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3/26/2009 1:30:48 PM
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You may be right. I do think there are a lot of brilliant people who have chosen not to go into to the political arena. They don't want to get drug through the mud. And I think that is a shame.
I agree that Newt is smart. I just don't know if he is electable. But, I have to say in recent years, I like him much more than I did before.
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MartiniMan
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Don't worry Lamont
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Date:
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3/26/2009 1:51:23 PM
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I am used to the response and it really doesn't bother me. I do like to get under their skin to the point that they resort to name calling. They really truly believe all the things they believe that aren't true and go after anyone that bursts their worldview bubble. It is why we have members of Congress wanting to reinstate some form of the unFairness Doctrine. If you can't compete you must silence your enemies.
What is particularly telling is even after I point out their absence of facts and logic it has no impact. I just get lectures about how they learned all about the Constitution and Federalist Papers from some liberal think tank or some government training program or the dailykos or huffington post.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
More insults
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3/26/2009 1:56:15 PM
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Now I am not a joy to be around. Boy, that really hurts. I think you would be surprised if you knew me but then again you seem so close minded that probably all you would do is go around and tell everyone how awful I am because I disagree with your liberal worldview and can back up my beliefs with the truth as opposed to emotion.
I don't have to insult you or call you names, you define yourself as a mean spirited liberal by your own words.
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| Name: |
architect
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Don't worry Lamont
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Date:
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3/26/2009 2:03:34 PM
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I've only occasionally looked at this forum after finding it a couple of weeks ago. To this point I don't recall seeing Martini Man actually refute any "absence of facts and logic" with actual facts and logic. He counters "publications from left wing think tanks" by referencing info from right wing think tanks and blogs. It is surprising that so few contributors see through his scam.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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Regarding Newt
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Date:
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3/26/2009 2:24:18 PM
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I like Newt a lot for his ideas and his ability to articulate conservative principals. I would say that he is a very polarizing figure on a national basis and may not be the best person to lead the Republican party out of the electoral woodshed they currently occupy. He brilliantly conceived and executed the Contract with America (or the Contract on America as liberals cleverly labeled it) and it was very popular at the time.
A DC lobbyist one of our companies use who is a Republican with a big law firm told me once that the culture in DC really changed when Newt was speaker. No more of the kinds of relationships that Reagan and Tip O'Neill had and much less collegiality. He believed part of the problem was the reaction of Democrats to being put out of power after so long but more of the blame went to Newt and his leadership team.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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Stick around architect
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Date:
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3/26/2009 2:28:15 PM
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and you will learn something. One thing I can assure you is I provide facts and logic regardless of the source. You see that's the problem with facts, they are actually true regardless of the source. You may call it a scam but the only scam here is your occasional drive-by insults when you feel to need to try to one up Hound when she gets cranky.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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It's because
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Date:
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3/26/2009 4:46:20 PM
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He has no original thoughts. Just mindless citing of facts he gleens from some right wing conservative sources. Oh yes, and tax cuts.
He likes to cite me for name calling yet he has repeatedly called me ignorant and stupid, and ill-informed to name a few. But that doesn't count you see, because he's right about everything.
I think there are a few people here who see through him, but you'll notice that those that most often agree just jump on the "me too" bandwagon of right wing rhetoric.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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No insults?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 4:56:09 PM
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Stupid, ill-informed, ignorant? Those aren't insults?
You know, for all your right wing facts you have never once convinced me or anyone else here of anything. At most, you've gotten a few "me too" posters. You just mindlessly post the same stuff over and over, as though by repeating again and again it somehow makes it so. Next thing you know you'll be spouting in ALL CAPs.
And if you think Aspen Institute is a liberal think tank -- well, at least I can independently think. Instead of posting some opinion piece about it, I'll post the real link to it and let people decide for themselves.
URL: http://www.aspeninstitute.org/about/mission
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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If you get a chance
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Date:
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3/26/2009 5:12:56 PM
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Here is the link to the Brzezinski comments. His comments about the economy start at about the 7:29 point. But, he about Iran and Afghanistan in the first part.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#29893226
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And Because I'm a Mean-Spirite
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Date:
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3/26/2009 5:17:08 PM
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liberal, per MM, here is the link to what Senator Gregg had to say about the Obama budget today on Morning Joe.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/29893338#29893338
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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And Because I'm a Mean-Spirite
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Date:
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3/26/2009 7:38:10 PM
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Good interview. There was a problem with your link but i figured it out.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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I looked at the Aspen website
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:41:58 PM
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Went there first and anyone with a discerning bone in their body would look at their mission statement and how they go out of the way to claim they are "non-partisan" would not be suspicious. But if you dig deeper, look at who is on their board, etc. it is filled with liberals. Again, I am glad to tell you that the Federalist Society is conservative in its ideology. Not something I worry about trying to hide like the Aspen Institute. Why does it bother you if it is a liberal think tank anyway? Why are you ashamed to admit that?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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Mindless citing of facts?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:44:56 PM
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Hmmm....I would rather be accused of that any day versus mindless citing of emotions. But you obfuscate once again as I don't mindlessly cite facts, I use facts to back up my political and economic beliefs. Try it some time, you may actually like it.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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I looked at the Aspen website
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:46:25 PM
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I've never regarded it as such. I've regarded it as an interesting forum for stimulating discussion on topics of interest. I certainly don't recall any "liberal" agenda being pushed and I don't think they are hiding anything. I think you are reading into it to see what you want to believe.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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No insults?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:55:45 PM
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I just went back and did a search and never once did I call you stupid. In fact, in several posts I have chided you for believing certain things with "you're too smart for that". I don't think you or anyone else on the forum is stupid. It's just you believe things that simply aren't true and I point that out. And there are times when you have been ignorant of facts. I too have been ignorant of things (i.e., I had heard of the Aspen Institute but didn't know much about them) but the difference between you and I is I do my homework. Face it Hound, you are the one with the hair trigger when it comes to insults. Architect drops in every once in a while for his own drive by insults.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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Mindless citing of facts?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 9:57:00 PM
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You don't think. You don't have any original thoughts you just mindless reguritate right wing rhetoric. Is that plain enough for you?
Most people take in information for a variety of sources, think about it and figure out what they think. That's not emotion, that's intelligence.
You remind me of some of the engineers and scientists that worked for me. Some of them Brilliant in their area and could spout "facts" all day long and analyze those facts. They were very comfortable in a black and white world, but start introducing the shades of gray and they were way out of their comfort zone. That's why the conservative agenda appeals to you so much -- not much room for shades of gray. That's why you are so fixed on tax cuts -- because you can't imagine another solution. The problem with "facts" is the same problem as "statistics" you can manipulate them to fit your preconception.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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No insults?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 10:01:45 PM
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Well, at least I'm not pompous.
I feel sorry for you. I've seen people like you before -- so self righteous and certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. When your big come down comes, it will hit you hard. I dont' know when it will come or how it will come, but it will come. Your rigidity in your thinking will be your downfall.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And Because I'm a Mean-Spirite
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Date:
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3/26/2009 10:03:01 PM
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Sorry there was a problem. I thought he made a lot of sense.
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| Name: |
architect
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No insults?
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Date:
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3/26/2009 11:10:40 PM
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Talullah, I think you are right about Martini Man. He doesn't actually back up his claims but simply makes the same claims over and over again in post after post with the hope that eventually somebody will start to believe him. Didn't some German crackpot propagandist use the same technique back in the 30's and 40's?
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