Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 8:07:58 PM

Am I that out of touch with truth, decency, morality and justice?

The folks who filmed PP folks negotiating and discussing the SELLING of parts from aborted babies are being indicted.

The folks who talk about keeping a fetus alive longer so the organs are worth more are not charged with anything.

One of the filmers is charged with "prohibiting" the sell of human organs.

I hope I read all that wrong.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 8:45:10 PM (updated 1/25/2016 8:46:44 PM)

It one of those things that sounds abhorrent and you may not like it, but the sale and use of aborted fetuses for research is not against the law.  Recording someone under false pretense and without their knowledge and then making that recording public is, especially when it is edited and has extraneous footage added to convey a false impression, is.

If you were really interested in the truth you would know that the planned Parenthood employee in the video did not ever state that Planned Parenthood ever sold aborted fetuses, which in fact they do not.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 8:57:29 PM

It is abhorrent. As is killing. 

Don't think this is the end of the story.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 8:58:42 PM

Some months ago I read that those videos were fake. I believe the agency that was hired to make the films admitted as much.  They should be indicted.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 9:03:05 PM

What constitutes "fake"?  Were they real people employed by PP saying real things?  Some of the stories coming from some of the abortion mills make me think those in the business become numb to the real loss caused by their actions.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 9:17:33 PM

Abortion is abhorrent in my opinion but if it occurs before viability it is NOT "killing" and not against the law.  Furthermore, l believe neither you, me nor anyone else has the right to judge woman who feels she has to make the decision to end a pregnancy or prohibit her making that decision. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 9:26:36 PM

viability is a dancing around word.  Those baby parts are viable!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/25/2016 9:42:15 PM

Viability is not "a dance around word".  Viability is when the fetus can survive outside the womb.  With artificial means of available today, viability occurs much earlier than in the past when God called the shots without the help from doctors and technicians.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 8:46:39 AM

 in the past when God called the shots  So then you do agree that at one time it was God's job to determine like.  Gee, I am so glad we took that away from him.  Surely, we can do a better job.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 8:53:29 AM

I just read that there are 47 splices in those videos. 

I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this issue.  

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 9:44:03 AM

I have read several reports from folks that have viewed the many hours of unedited footage. Footage that was certified unedited by leading experts. The general consensus is the raw footage is more damning than the edited versions, partly because it is so obviously unedited and horrendous.  I claim neutrality on abortion and lethal punishment. I can make a convincing argument on either side of both issues. When talking life and death I defer judgment to a higher pay grade than myself and all other mere mortals. I have not seen anyone claim the unedited versions exonerate anyone, only that much of the published versions are "taken out of context". But I don't surf left wing sites or extreme right wing sites either and I am sure there are talking heads there claiming the unedited versions do exonerate all of PP. From what I have seen the context was obviuosly I have these things of value and I want to maximize what I can get for them. That's good capitalism, except when you operate on public money and its has been legislated illegal to sell your thing of value.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Did you even read it?
Date:	1/26/2016 9:47:11 AM

They weren't indicted for illegally videotaping someone, they were indicted for tampering with evidence and one of them was indicted for buying fetal tissue (ironic isn't it?).  If you think the videos are fake so be it.  Considering Planned Parenthood makes hundreds of millions of dollars each year murdering babies I am not sure why its such a leap that they would sell fetal tissue to the highest bidder.  Regardless of editing, the words that came out of the mouths of several of these PP employees would make any decent person sick......decent being the operative word.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 10:03:13 AM

hope you read it wrong also

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	MM do you have the ability
Date:	1/26/2016 10:40:09 AM (updated 1/26/2016 10:41:33 AM)

to accept that a Christian or well meaning person of any persuasion can personally oppose abortion yet not believe that PP is "Murdering babies"?  Probably not considering You once posted on this forum that l was a "baby killer" when l expressed such an opinion and said that only a woman and her conscience could and should be qualified to make the decision to end a pregnancy.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Yes I do
Date:	1/26/2016 11:19:42 AM

No i cannot accept that a Christian could believe that abortion is anything other than murder.  if they do they believe in a version of Christianity that is distorted and evil because it is pretty clear from scripture what a baby in the womb is in the eyes of God.  As for well meaning people, of course they can belive so.  They would likewise be accepting a grave moral evil that violates natural law.  

But back to my point, they were not indicted for illegally making the videotape as you falsey and incorrectly claimed.  i am curious if you have even watched the videotapes.  i am betting not.  But if you have and you actually believe that the editing somehow so dramatically changed the nature of the conversation then you are completely hopeless.  What the PP employees said in their own words was chilling to anyone with an ounce of decency.  You may not agree and if so, then in my opinion you lack decency.  Even a great number of pro abortion folks were appalled at what was said by PP employees in the videos.

And i stand by my position that anyone that either has, participates or encourages an abortion is a baby killer.  But i believe that once conceived it is a human life and should be protected.  Others do not share that belief.  i think they are wrong.  They disagree.  That is why abortion is such a difficult issue to debate.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Hypocritical much?
Date:	1/26/2016 11:31:20 AM

Archie do you not see the hypocracy of defending PP while being offended because MM called you a "baby killer"? Once. Years ago.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 4:43:25 PM

 Abortion is a very, very minor part of what Planned Parenthood does.

I understand that there are a lot of Christians who believe abortion is murder, that's why I say that if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.  Until they change the Constitution about a woman's right to privacy, it is legal.  If they can harvest viable tissue for stem cell resarch or if part of the aborted fetus can be used to save a baby that will be born, then so be it. 

In the end, it is still a decision between a woman, her doctor, perhaps her partner.  She will have to square her beliefs with God, but not other people.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 5:25:24 PM

Actually it is not a minor portion of their revenue.  According to congressional testimony by PP it is at least 25% of their revenue stream and likely higher as they probably use some of the grants they receive to perform abortions.  Looking at it another way, 86% of their non government grant revenue comes from providing abortions.  Selling fetal tissue is against the law.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/26/2016 5:55:06 PM

...but can you please cite the section of the constitution that you think addresses a "woman's right to privacy" regarding health care, especially abortions.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/26/2016 7:14:14 PM

Lifer, go look up "Roe v. Wade" that was what RvW was about - a woman's right to privacy about having an abortion.

I'm getting out of this argument.  I understand that you all believe as you believe; and I will continue to believe as I believe.  MM, I believe that was a Congressional number, but PP provided another number.  And every pie chart I have seen shows abortion as a minor part of PPs overall mission.  Frankly, I don't follow the argument as closely as I might if I were in my child bearing years.  I just hate to see women forced back into back alleys and unqualified abortionists. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hypocritical much?
Date:	1/26/2016 8:03:35 PM

What hypocrisy!  First, PP did not break any laws of the of the United States of America and, not that it matters from the legal standpoint, there is no consensus on whether they broke any religious laws depending on whose religious beliefs we reference, second, I am NOT a baby killer, and third, being called a hypocrit by anyone of the right wing crazies on this forum is a joke!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	A-MEN
Date:	1/26/2016 8:05:18 PM (updated 1/26/2016 8:35:54 PM)

I love to hear Hound preach common-sense, reason and truth!!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 8:23:44 PM (updated 1/26/2016 8:29:23 PM)

MM is correct, Selling fetal tissue is against he law.  But MM is a bit disingenuous by failing to point out that with the patient's consent, transferring and using fetal tissue for medical or research purposes is legal as is collecting payment for expenses reimbursement and transportation cost.  It all sounds inhumane from the non-scientific/medical consideration, but it IS a scientific/medical procedure.  There are things that take place on a daily basis that I consider disgusting and immoral, but as long as they are allowed by law I will live with it.

PP did not offer fetal tissue for sale at any point in any of the videos.

Where in the hearing exactly did PP say 25% of their revenue is from abortion services?  Nationwide it is 3%.  Since very few PP clinics  offer abortion, it is possible that some of the few that do might have a higher percentage from abortion services.  Context is truth 

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/26/2016 9:34:46 PM

Hound, Archie

If you get the chance, read this essay from Ms. Mathewes-Green.  I concur that our generation will be judged harshly by a newer, brighter, compassionate generation who will accuse us of having lived through a mass genocide and did nothing about it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430152/abortion-roe-v-wade-unborn-children-women-feminism-march-life

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	You are either lying or didn't watch the videos
Date:	1/26/2016 9:42:27 PM

They did indeed on several occasions offer to sell fetal body parts and fetal organs and talked about the best way to harvest them. So which is it, are you a liar or up just ignorantly spewing nonsense?  And don't make me prove you are one or the other because you will have to watch the truth.  It won't be pretty for you.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/26/2016 9:47:35 PM

You are correct that SCOTUS conceived out of whole cloth a right to privacy as the rationale in Roe v Wade. As for the PP funding, they get $262M every year for abortions. Their total budget is $1.3B, of which a large portion comes from grants (federal and private). So 86% of their funding from sources other than grants comes from abortions. These are their numbers given to Congress by them. They are not mine.  So at a minimum, of their total funding almost 20% comes from abortions. That is not minor as you claimed. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/27/2016 6:17:15 AM

Do you really think I don't know about Roe v Wade? I would bet I know more about that case than you do, so go do Googling yourself. But for the record, roe v wade is NOT based in the constitition. Like so many other SCOTUS decisions in recent decades, it was made out of whole cloth.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/27/2016 4:46:20 PM

That would be true if our generation invented abortion.  Unfortunately, women were having abortions long before Roe v. Wade.  All legalizing abortions has done is took it out of the back alleys and amateurs performing them and put it in a medical setting.  If RvW is recinded, women of means will still have abortions because they will go to where they are preformed in a medical setting legally; and poor women will be back in the alleys. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/27/2016 4:48:11 PM

Lifer, stick it when the sun don't shine.  I already know you, like a warehouse lawyer, are an expert on everything.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/27/2016 6:22:46 PM

Pointing out your condescension really seems to strike a nerve. I am not an expert at anything but well versed on many topics. An expert is simply someone who knows more and more about less and less.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	or...
Date:	1/27/2016 6:26:02 PM

They will learn. to keep their legs together or use one of many very affordable choices available everywhere.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Excuse me...
Date:	1/27/2016 7:55:10 PM

And I've got a headache the size of Texas and couldn't rearlly care what you know or don't know, or whether you and Wix think I have an air of anything.  I used to care about this issue passionately; however, at my age now, it's time for a new generation of women to take up the mantle of this and keep Roe v. Wade from being overturned. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	or...
Date:	1/27/2016 8:08:32 PM

So it's, as usual, the woman's responsibility.  What about the guy keeping it in his pants!!  Sorry, but sex, including recreational sex, is as old as abortion and neither is likely to disappear regardless of what you prefer.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	or...
Date:	1/28/2016 6:55:56 AM

There you to with twisted rationalization again. Every man alive could drop trousers but if there is not a willing woman to lay with no ody will get pregnant, but forget that. Your argument is its the woman's body so threrefor solely HER choice, the man has no say. Fine, but "she" has to take responsibility from the moment she decides to have sex. But as long as foolish idiots like yourself continue to excuse and reward women for poor choices they will continue to download tricycle motors or provide PP with extra profits.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Whaaaa? OK folks
Date:	1/28/2016 8:54:05 AM (updated 1/28/2016 9:03:20 AM)

Please carefully read Lifers angry diatribe above (it is difficult and will require patience) then tell me who is the foolish idiot.

Amazing that in 2016 anyone could actually believe that it is always the woman's choice alone on whether to engage in sex!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Not sure it's "hypocrisy" by definition
Date:	1/28/2016 9:10:03 AM (updated 1/28/2016 9:11:18 AM)

but it is surely a good laugh to have the likes of Lifer accuse Hound of "condescension"!  Very bad aim Lifer.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Whaaaa? OK folks
Date:	1/28/2016 10:35:51 AM

It's the asprin between the knees argument.  I guess it is the woman's fault if birth control fails too.  Other than the pill, which is 99.9 effective, most other methods are somewhere in the 90% effective.  These are the same people that are outraged that the morning after pill "Plan B" is available, which is not the same French drug that will cause a miscarriage in the first week of pregnancy. 

I don't agree with abortion as a method of birth control; however, there are many reasons why women seek abortions.  I think a lot of people that are against abortion fail to realize the emotional and physical impact on the woman.  I worked with a woman whose 12 year old sister was raped by the brother of her friend on a sleepover.  She became pregnant.  She had an abortion.  The right to lifers would have had that child, have the baby.  Bad enough as it was to have been raped, that young girl then had to experience the aftermath of the abortion. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Why do you like to be wrong?
Date:	1/28/2016 11:40:43 AM

Did you watch the videos?  I did and several clearly were offering fetal body parts for sale and discussed how they improved the harvesting process to make the parts more valuable and were also haggling on the price.  Watch the videos Archie before you spout PP's lies repeated by the stupid media.

As for the PP budget numbers, they came for their testimony under oath to Congress.  Why would they lie?  They said they make $262M per year perfoming aboortions out of a total revenue stream of $1.3B.  It represents 86% of their revenue from sources other than grants.  The 3% number is a lie.  From their mouths to your ears......

Name:	au67 -	Reply
Subject:	Whaaaa? OK folks
Date:	1/28/2016 4:17:23 PM

 Are there any satistics on the number or % of abortions performed where the pregnancy was due to rape?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 4:23:00 PM

The vast majority of abortions are what shpuld be called retroactive birth control.  They are for convenience.  Rapes and incest are a minor percentage.  According to the NY Times it is less than 1%.  This argument has always been and will always be complete bull excrement.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 5:31:41 PM

MM, that is just not true.  I think you are failing to take into consideration the physical, mental and emotional impact on women that have abortions.  It's not a walk in the park - and you are a man and I don't think you could begin to understand.  I understand as a Catholic that you oppose abortion and that is your right - and any women that oppose abortion - that is their right not to have one.  But it is not "just" a medical procedure - there are physical risks, there are emotions and there are mental considerations for a woman to make that decision.  I have no problem with people that oppose it, because they will never have to do.  But I fully support a women's right to have the option to terminate a pregnancy.  At the end of the day, it's between her and God.  It surprises me that all of you that are against "big government" and regulations don't oppose the government being involved with a women's uterus.  I certainly do.

Name:	au67 -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 8:11:30 PM

If less than 1% due to rape/incest is not true, what is the number?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 8:51:36 PM (updated 1/28/2016 9:01:46 PM)

Let me make this simple, I am against murder whether it is a crack dealer on the street or a baby in the womb. If you don't think govt should protect babies from being murdered then I can't understand why you think it should exist at all.  It's not exactly big government to protect innocents from being extracted from the womb and have their brains sucked out so PP can sell the parts. That is what is small govt types think is part of their limited role along with national defense and infrastructure.

You don't think it's a baby or even a human life. Fair enough and as you said, that's between you and God.  But  I don't want to be in your shoes when you do meet your maker.  As I said in another post, what makes abortion so hard is that if you don't think a fetus (which is Latin for little one) is a baby, a defenseless life and a precious soul worthy of defense, then you will have no problem with abortion. If you think otherwise like I do then you will oppose it.  This is really simple. You get all twisted around a woman's right to choose what she does with her body.  In my view, when she became pregnant there are now two bodies and two souls and one of them doesn't have the right to decide the other dies anymore than a woman with a two week old baby that is totally dependent on her to stay alive has the right to kill it. This isn't arguable when you have a totally different understanding of human life.  But our human nature tells us that abortion is wrong and that is why there is abortion counseling.

And give me a break that I am a man and can't have an opinion. God's laws were written for all humanity and I have just as much right as any woman to defend the lives of the unborn. And that doesn't even get into the genesis of PP which was started based on eugenics and getting rid of inferior blacks. That is the side you have chosen, all over the phony right to privacy. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	That is the number
Date:	1/28/2016 8:52:52 PM

She can believe whatever she wants but that doesn't change the truth. It's not even debatable. It is what it is. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 9:08:02 PM

Unfortunately it is not black and white as you would have it.  I submit to you that in certain circumstances God would support the decision to not bring into the world a child who would face a life of excruciating pain and certain early death.  Have you, within your family, ever faced such a decision?   Our family has, and I can tell you that you are not qualified to claim how you would handle it until you actually were faced with it.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Emotional Drivel
Date:	1/28/2016 9:34:32 PM

For one who prides himself on facts and logic, you have gone over the top in emotional drivel.  I have said it once and I will say it again - if you don't believe in abortion then don't have one.  If you think it is murder, don't have one.  Next you will be telling me that birth control is preventing God's will.  There is nothing you will say that will change my thinking on abortion.  And I'll take my chances with Judgement Day, just like everyone else.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 9:36:05 PM

I would submit to you that under no circumstances would God support the decision to murder a baby in the womb.  And if you look at the lives of the saints you would see a great many that lived in pain and faced certain death and saw great redemptive meaning in that suffering.  And yes my family have faced that decision under a number of circumstances.  A father dying of lung cancer, a brother who is a quadriplegic.  No one has suggested they be put to death just to avoid suffering and neither have they.  

Regardless, one doesn't have to experience something personally to understand and espouse fundamental moral truths.  Using that logic, unless you have ever had someone in your family that was murdered then you have no right to opine about whether murder is wrong.  That makes no sense to me.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Emotional Drivel
Date:	1/28/2016 9:41:19 PM (updated 1/28/2016 9:42:37 PM)

No, my view is based on facts, logic and reason. I have thought this through carefully and I cannot think of any point in time other than at conception when human life begins. Others can believe otherwise but anything other than conception is arbitrary and capricious. I am not trying to change your mind on abortion.  I am telling you and others why I believe what I believe. Natural law and God's law works for me. 

And besides, emotional drivel is talking about rape as if it is a rationale for the other 99% of abortions so that some woman isn't inconvenienced. That is drivel.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	1/28/2016 9:45:37 PM

Where is this coming from?  This is where I feel choice comes in.  It would be a horrible decision to make whether to bring a child into the world that would be severely handicapped, or deformed or face a life of severe pain.  If your family faced that decision, I feel terrible for all of you.

 I worked for an Army Officer whose son was born with a brain tumor.  The Drs. recommended that they let his son die, because the future for his son would be terrible.   He made the decision to have the tumor removed, and his son was left severely handicapped, had seizures, could barely walk and did not talk.  The Drs. told him that his son would not live past 2, but he lived to be 24.  I agree that you don't know what you will do untill you are faced with the situation.   I don't think that is what we are debating here. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Emotional Drivel
Date:	1/28/2016 9:52:07 PM

Your reasoning is emotional drivel.  It has nothing to do with facts, logic and reason.  But, you are entitled to feel as you do, based on your religious beliefs, life experience, gut feelings.  And all I'm saying to you, is that if you do not believe in abortion, don't have one.  If you don't believe in Birth Control, don't use it.  You can judge others all you want, but at the end of the day, it will still be between individual and God.  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 9:55:45 PM

Your examples are already out of the womb. As much as you might protest it is different.  Does your God revel in pain and suffering?  I am sorry but choosing to not continue with a pregnancy that would result in pain and suffering with no quality of life would not be condemned by my God.

BTW, I was raised Roman Catholic and know the teachings of the Church.  But I don't believe in something because someone who claims to know it all tells me to.  My God gave me a brain and the ability to reason.  I choose to use that faculty that He gave me.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Emotional Drivel
Date:	1/28/2016 10:02:21 PM

By your logic if you don't believe in murder don't kill someone but since I do I am free to kill whoever I want. Who are you to tell me I can't murder someone?  If you haven't murdered someone then you don't even have the right to an opinion about murder. Same absence f logic. Logic tells me that life begins at conception. Anything else is just picking some arbitrary timeframe. The latter is emotional drivel to justify belief in a grave moral evil.  But hey, we,have gotten rid of tens of millions of black babies so it's not all bad, right?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Minuscule percentage
Date:	1/28/2016 10:08:41 PM

So do I and my reasoning tells me that life begins at conception. You may think otherwise in which case abortion is ok.  I find the concept of someone other than God deciding what constitutes a worthy human life to be repugnant. Others believe they have the right to make that decision.  We'll all be judged but as for me I'll take 2,000 years of Christian understanding over expediency any day. And I value every day of my brothers life even if he is a quad and so does he thank God. That someone thinks they have the right to end his life because he isn't any longer useful is likewise repugnant to me. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	1/28/2016 10:10:17 PM

I choose to not get into details, but where this is coming from is that there are instances where a caring God would say "it is ok to not submit this being to a life of pain and suffering, with no hope of it ever being better before death.  I strongly oppose abortion for convenience, but believe there are times that God might agree that it is an acceptable course of action.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Then MM
Date:	1/29/2016 8:00:38 AM

Are we to assume you are supportive of that "miniscule" percentage of abortions for pregnancy caused by rape...are you in conflict with the official platform of the GOP?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	1/29/2016 8:16:41 AM

Your comment that "next they will be telling us birth control is against God's will" hit the nail on the head!  Many anti-abortion folks already claim that.  If birth control using artificial man made means of preventing life is against God's will, how close are we to saying the use of artificial means to prevent death (including the miricle machines that can prevent the "death" of a very premature baby) are against God's will.  These folks remind me of the Russian Orthodox bishops who argued over how many angels could stand on the head of a pin while the serfs starved!  MM's arguments are ridiculous, but as you say, he has the right to make them...he does not have the right to win them or insist that national policy be based on them.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	My my, MM
Date:	1/29/2016 8:25:57 AM (updated 1/29/2016 8:28:46 AM)

After reading the rest of the thread it is obvious my assumption based on your initial post wqas wrong.  Your position obviously would be that even if a mentally retarded 12 year old girl was repeatedly raped by a drunken 65 year old a grandfather with an STD and became pregnant and in the course of the pregnancy it became medically obvious that to carry the pregnancy to term the she would likely die or be permanently disabaled while giving birth to a living vegetable who would never even be aware of his or her existance in the few hours he or she would be alive...she still should not be permitted to have an abortion!!  My my, you are a good Christian.

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 9:33:49 AM

Hound,

The numbers unfortunately don't add up.  Do you think that in the back alleys,  2800 abortions per day were being done?

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	1/29/2016 9:42:21 AM

Archie,

It is called faith.  What this world is sorely missing.  My wife and I have never utilized BC, trusted God with natural family planning and have six fantastic children.  Not all perfect, but neither are we.   Ask me which one of them I would give back if we had utilized artificial BC.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 10:43:37 AM

Where are you getting this number from? 

I want to respond to what you said earlier.  It is your choice to not practice birth control.  Just because it is available, no one is forcing you to use it and I think that is fine.  If you can afford to raise a family of six kids without public assistance, then great.  I worked with 2 different men, both Irish Catholic who had 10 kids. Both men had good jobs and supported their families.  One had a son that sang in the Vienna Boys Choir, so that son, two daughters and his wife lived in Vienna, while he lived here in the U.S. This is the thing with choice - you get to choose what is right for you. 

But I wonder this - Welfare mothers who are popping out a baby a year or two, so as to continue to increase her right to public assistance that keeps her from having to work - do you think she should have that right? 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Good for you Doc
Date:	1/29/2016 11:51:11 AM (updated 1/29/2016 11:58:17 AM)

Now do you believe that you, or MM, or a religious leader, or the government, or any other person or organization should be able to  insist your neighbor live the same lifestyle or strive for the same spiritual perfection?  I think I might guess what MM would say, but how about you?  Also please tell me what you believe about the artificial man made prevention or delay of death.  If you leave it up to God and choose to not use a man made method of preventing birth will you also refuse a man made method to delay your death...not talking extreme measures here, what about something so simple as taking an asperin to prevent that heart attack God may be planning for you?  Inconsistency and hypocrisy are first cousins.

The bottom line is this.  You do and believe what you want regarding religiously involved issues such as abortion and Terry Schiavo type situations, but please grant others the same privilege.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 12:34:18 PM

I would say she can pop as many as she wants, but that there be a predetermined dollar limit on the amount of monthly assistance available for child support, and after that limit is reached additional babies get the birther no more money.

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	Good for you Doc
Date:	1/29/2016 12:37:57 PM

Archie,

To answer your first question, that is exactly what the Apostles did.  Insist is not the right word, but encourage is a better word.   I try to live, albeit failing at times, consistent with the tenants of the Catholic Church.    That is what we have taught our children, why we sacrificed in order to provide to them a parochial private education and anticipate that these same tenants will be passed on to our grandchildren.  All pro-life people are trying to do is defend those lives who cannot defend themselves.  Read that essay again.  I cannot imagine a heart so hard that would read that and not understand what being pro-life really is all about.  No more plain and simpler than that.  Again, limited faith in what God can do for a mother's and child's life in this situation often results in acts of convenience that affect the mother long after the procedure has been performed.     Regarding machines that you say prevent or delay death, try inserting "preserving life" and you will have my answer.  

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 1:19:15 PM

"Nobody wants to have an abortion.  And if nobody wants to have an abortion, why are women doing it 2800 times per day?  If women doing something 2800 times per day that they don't want to do, this is not liberation that we have won.  We are colluding in a strange new form of oppression".   Frederica Mathewes-Green from the National Review Article I referenced.  And I agree completely with MrHodja and have advocated that very policy for many years.  

Hound, we had four children by the time I finished my residency, maxing out at 20K/year.  We were dirt poor, and relied on faith knowing that by relying on God's plan for our lives and not our own, that we would be provided for.  Boy oh boy, were we ever.  We look back on those years as the happiest of our lives.  So please  don't intimate that I had a large family because I could afford it without public assistance. Sure, large families are expensive, time consuming, anxiety producing etc, etc....However, we believed that if we did not  allow God to work in our life, we would never experience his generous works and bountiful mercy!   

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 1:47:04 PM

I understand your faith based argument. I was raised in the Catholic Church.  What I am saying to you is that I am glad that you have thae option to live your beliefs.  You didn't practice BC and that was an option open to you, to do as you believed.  In your belief system, abortion is not an option for you and no one will make your wife, daughter, etc have an abortion.  As far as I know, in the U.S., the government is not planning on restricting the number of children you can have, as they did in China. 

What I am saying is that I do not want the government making these decisions for me.  And I don't want people with your belief system making decisions for me either.  Most women that have abortions have them before the 6 week mark, and it is a simple matter of a D&C - no partial live birth or anything like that.  Just a simple scraping of the uterus - the same procedure that is used for other problems. 

I have a feeling that all this talk of baby body parts leaves people thinking that the vast majority of abortions involve late term or partial birth, which must be done after 13 weeks. 

Those of us who support Pro-choice would not insist that Pro-Lifers have an abortion.  We just don't want the government or you, beause of your religious beliefs, making a very personal decision for us. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 1:54:36 PM (updated 1/29/2016 1:55:12 PM)

Hound, when does life begin?  What are they scraping from the uterus?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	PlannedParenthood Accusers Indicted
Date:	1/29/2016 2:07:42 PM

Life begins at birth.  Otherwise we would recognize conception date as the milestone and not the birth.  Also, up until a certain point, a fetus cannot live outside the mother.  I'm sorry, I don't know the number of weeks when it is possible to birth the fetus and have it live.

They are scraping cells from the uterus.  Just a collection of cells and tissue. Up though the first trimester, abortion only involves a D&C.  At 13 weeks on, it involves a partial birth, i.e. the woman goes through a labor like process of the uterus contracting and expelling.   A late stage abortion, which is only done if the mother's health is at risk or if the fetus has some significant malformation, involves an actual full stage labor and "birth".  As I understand it, these are very rare. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Let me help out Archie
Date:	1/29/2016 8:39:40 PM

As I have stated numerous times I believe life begins at conception. You describe a horrific crime and your solution is to murder an innocent baby.  And you question my Christian credentials?

How about this scenario.  Your Dad rapes the young woman in question..  He is captured, tried and convicted. The judge hands down the sentence. You, the son of your malicious, rapist father will be put to death by some Planned Parenthood doctor by inserting a knife into the base of your brain stem and sucking your brains out.  Then they will harvest your organs and give them to the highest bidder because your Dad the rapist said it was A OK with him.  That my very sick friend is exactly what you are proposing. Doesn't seem fair does it?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Let me help out MM
Date:	1/29/2016 11:47:17 PM (updated 1/29/2016 11:49:02 PM)

Who says that the scenario you described is acceptable.  Certainly not me.  More importantly, almost every word in post is false...partial birth abortion is not legal accept to save the life of the woman, fetal body parts are not sold and certainly not auctioned, a rapist has no say in whether his victim has or does not have a pregnancy ended oR what happens to her aborted fetus.  If you have to make up a story out of whole cloth to defend your beliefs how secure are you in those beliefs.

How is it ok for you or anybody else insist that a woman you don't even know be guided by your beliefs?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Good for you Doc
Date:	1/29/2016 11:59:42 PM

You answered the question about artificial life support very nicely,  well done, but you dodged the main point...do you believe every other human being should have the same ability to follow their own conscience on issues with a religious aspect to them just as you follow yours even if their beliefs are radically different or in conflict with your own?  It's a yes or no question. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Let me help out MM
Date:	1/30/2016 8:56:13 PM

Because I believe in objective truth. You believe all truth is subjective. I believe it is objectively true that life begins at conception. You believe that life begins when someone subjectively thinks it begins.  As for my scenario, it is exactly what you described. The parent of the child conceived as a result of rape decides the child dies.  But OK, I'll make it correlate exactly.  At the sentencing the judge asks the rape victim for her requested sentence. She says you, the child of the rapist must die exactly as I described. Now what do you say?  Just don't seem fair does it that poor Archie gets his brain sucked out and organs sold all because the rape victim wants you dead.  And if you don't think PP isn't selling body parts, including organs you obviously haven't watched the videos.  From their mouths to your ears if you have the guts, which I know you don't.  You would rather lie about the videos than be faced with the truth.

And it's laughable that you criticize me for coming up with an unlikely scenario given every single time I debate abortion the defenders come up with your stupid circumstances as if that accounts for anything more than a half percent at most of all abortions.  How about this deal Achie, I'll accept abortion being legal in the case of rape and incest if you'll accept it being illegal in every other case. For me, that would be a huge victory although I suspect the cases of rape and incest will magically go up dramatically. Murdering a baby because it's inconvenient......wow.....  So what do you say?  Or is all this bull excrement just a cover for your desire to keep PP working away at aborting millions of those unwanted babies of color?  You and Margaret Sanger can bathe in the same heat bath for all of eternity.   Pretty much up to you.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	What happens when a pregnant woman is murdered?
Date:	1/30/2016 9:02:31 PM (updated 1/30/2016 9:03:28 PM)

Explain the many cases where a person is convicted of double homicide when they kill a pregnant woman.  If you think life begins at birth you have a radical misunderstanding of what constitutes life. I am curious why you think that?  Doesn't a 1 month old baby depend just as much on someone else to live?  In fact, a newly born baby is as reliant on others to stay alive as a baby in the womb.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Good grief!?
Date:	1/30/2016 10:36:57 PM

So tell MM, how many angels can stand on the head of a pin?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Lost again, eh?
Date:	1/31/2016 10:11:23 AM

You know youve lost an argument when you have to resort to angels on a pin.  It was your scenario Archie, I just turned it around on you. Somehow in your mind its OK to murder an innocent baby but not OK to sentence you to death for the crimes of your father.  Hard one to rectify isn't it?

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Lost again, eh?
Date:	1/31/2016 10:19:32 AM (updated 1/31/2016 10:20:20 AM)

You and I look at this differently, but Archie's answer is about as weak as it gets.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	What happens when a pregnant woman is murdered?
Date:	1/31/2016 12:09:38 PM

Because someone twisted our legal system.  I doubt that someone who maurdered  a woman pregnant in her first trimester would be charged with a double homicide.  I think the reason is that during the first trimester, spontenous miscarriage is much more likely than a baby dying in the womb at the 2nd or 3rd trimester, which would require an induced labor. 

You know MM, you and I can argue this until the cows come home, but we are not going to agree.  I don't support abortion as a routine method of birth control, but I still think it is a woman's right to choose for all kinds a reasons.  I don't think it is as carefree decision as you would make it out to be.  I'm not in favor of second and third trimester abortions, but I think there are circumstances that should allow it as well.  I was raised Catholic and I understand the church's position on abortion; I respect their position, but I don't believe it is in touch with reality.  It isn't the only thing I disagree with the church about and therefore I no longer consider myself a practicing Catholic. 

I would love a world where all babies are conceived in love, and arrive healthy and are happily welcomed - and if not welcomed, put up for adoption to a loving family.  But that is not reality - there is rape and incest and birth control failures, and people that can't possibly afford another child; and people that aren't fit to be parents. There are babies that are mutilated and killed by mentally distubed parents, and babies that are born into abusive families where adoption wasn't even considered. There are people that take unwanted babies because they just want to boost their income as foster parents and don't give a damn about the child. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	What happens when a pregnant woman is murdered?
Date:	1/31/2016 10:22:07 PM

You're right, we will never agree. I just don't believe in murdering an innocent baby because someone made a bad decision.  You don't care.  I can live with my beliefs.  If you can live with yours best of luck to you.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Lost again, eh?
Date:	1/31/2016 10:26:45 PM

Weak is a kind description. Archie is intellectually vacuous and he is so clueless that he doesn't even understand when he has boxed himself into a corner. i know we don't agree on this issue but at least you,are intellectually honest. i may not agree but i can at least respect that. Achie and intellect are mutually exclusive. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Lost again, eh?
Date:	2/1/2016 10:52:04 AM

No, you are lost MM. my angels on a pin reply was to your post about murder of a pregnant woman where you get into such convoluted nonsense, not the even more ridiculous non-comparison posted earlier.  Impossible scenarios  based on false  statements and assumptions are not  worthy of a reply.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	What happens when a pregnant woman is murdered?
Date:	2/1/2016 12:11:56 PM

I can and do live with my beliefs every day, just as you do.  As I have said mulitiple times in this thread - if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.  That's what pro-CHOICE is about.  It in no way requires those that don't believe in abortion to have one. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Lost again, eh?
Date:	2/1/2016 3:16:06 PM

It's a challenge keeping track of absurdities.  My hypothetical example was exactly what you want for an innocent child conceived by rape. Just a little twist to demonstrate your lack of intellectual honesty.  No surprise it went right over your head.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hey MM, did you not notice
Date:	2/2/2016 8:37:06 AM (updated 2/2/2016 8:37:58 AM)

I also replied to your "absurdity"?  I asked about an event that is unlikely but plausible if we are ever ruled by your belief system.  You proposed something that is a legal impossibility in actual fact!  As I say, if you have to defend your beliefs with made up BS, how secure are you with those beliefs??

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hey MM, did you not notice
Date:	2/2/2016 10:25:26 AM

Just remember Archie, it also used to be illegal to have an abortion.  I am completely fine with my beliefs because when I die and am judged I will at least not have to hear how I failed to protect the most innocent of all.  You however will be judged for your complete support of the murder of innocent babies using the absurdity of the rape of some mentally challenged girl who was raped repeatedly.  You call my scenerio absurd and I am all ears to hear about the number of abortions that follow your example.  So put up or shut up Archie.  Just how many cases of mentally challenged rape victims have had an abortion?  For every one of these examples, if you can find one, I can cite thousands and maybe tens of thousands done for convenience.  My hypothetical example is entirely valid as it relies on exactly the same logic you used to justify murdering a baby.  That you can't understand logic is nothing new, in fact it is entirely consistent.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hey MM, again
Date:	2/2/2016 10:56:21 AM (updated 2/2/2016 11:06:28 AM)

you hit the nail on the head...abortion USED to be illegal but now it is NOT.  Live with that fact!  Believe what ever you want and try as hard as you like to elect nuts who will make everything that is legal, but that you disagree with, illegal!  Now afford me and every other American that same privilege or shut up!!!

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hey MM, again
Date:	2/2/2016 1:02:13 PM

You can believe whatever you want but being for an unjust law that denies the most innocent and vulnerable in our society the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness doesn't make you right any more than all those southern Democrats that were all in for Jim Crow laws.  If some forms of abortion or abortion altogether is once again declared illegal I assume you will shut up as well.  And that doesn't even address all the people that wanted it to be legal when it wasn't.  Assume you didn't want them to shut up then, right? 

The fact is I demonstrated that your position is incoherent or at least inconsistent so now you want me to shut up.  Very typical left wing nut thinking.  Lose an argument so the other party just needs to shut up.  I like to keep you talking because the more you say to support abortion the more incoherent your position looks.  Why don't you just admit it, you like culling all those black and Hispanic babies from the population.  We already have enoough of those dark skinned types anyway, right?  You and Margaret Sanger will make for a fine pair when you finally join her.  As for me, I will never stop opposing the murder of babies and I will never shut up about it.  Too bad, so sad for you.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Here's coherence MM
Date:	2/2/2016 2:25:36 PM

if the law is ever changed to make abortion illegal I will obey the law, but I will express disapproval of the illegalization and work for the election of those who would change it...exactly like you are doing!  Put that in your pipe and smoke it!  Your arrogant, holier then thou, blow hard hypocrisy is something to behold!!!

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Calm down and take a valium
Date:	2/2/2016 3:14:28 PM (updated 2/2/2016 3:43:43 PM)

My, my but you seem a tad upset over this exchange.  Take your medication for psychoses and calm yourself down.  I suspect all your angst is that you know in your heart of hearts that killing innocent babies is wrong but you just can't admit it.  I am perfectly fine with you doing exactly what I am doing now if by some miracle we undo the unjust law of making abortion legal.  No hypocrisy on my end.

The primary difference is that the morality of my position is so much better than the immorality of yours.  I can certainly understand why that makes you so angry and defensive and having to resort to name calling.  You always have the option of changing your views on this as I have on capital punishment.  But I suspect your pride would not allow that to happen.  Not to mention you really do want to make sure we don't have too many dark skinned babies don't you?  Tsk, tsk......

And by the way, I enjoy an occasional cigar but never a pipe.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Here's coherence MM
Date:	2/2/2016 8:02:05 PM (updated 2/2/2016 8:03:12 PM)

It is obvious you are losing this "argument", and badly.  Your last post is black and white proof.  I disagree with MM's absolute "birth the baby under any circumstance" belief but the adult thing to do is agree to disagree and move on.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Here's coherence MM
Date:	2/4/2016 8:22:42 AM

Thankfully he seems to have stopped digging the hole.  I feel like the dog that beats his head against the wall because it feels good when he stops.  Arguing with a died in the wool liberal with the hope they can be logical or use reason is pretty much hopeless.  It's all about emotion and the appearance in their minds of good intentions.