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Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/11/2008 4:00:04 PM

A new bill hads been intorduced in the Alabama legislature to include Jordan Lake in the prohibition. What is next?

Our rights are,

Slip sliding away............

Name:	DJ -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/11/2008 6:17:18 PM

Is there anything in the boat ban that says you can't take a boat under 26ft and build the %iss out of an engine and make it go as fast as the boats they banned?

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/11/2008 8:41:04 PM

Not a thing - yet. The door has been opened however, and if need be, more money can be directed towards Montgomery to further limit your options on the waterways.

Name:	longtimer -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 12:45:26 AM

Question: What's the quickest way to go about getting new laws on the books?

Answer: Openly disobey the laws that are already there, thus forcing the PTB to enact even toucher laws.

Hate the new law all you want. Bad-mouth it, curse its very existence, protest it, write songs about it, let the people in charge know how you feel about it. But if you BREAK it, don't complain when they enact tougher laws, which they will do if it appears that those they already have aren't tough enough.

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 1:15:03 AM

Good point Longtimer! The fact is the vast majority of us like the new law. We are not as vocal so its hard to tell. I am looking forward to a lake without the banned boats...the gulf is just a few hours away and thats where those boats belong.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 8:40:30 AM

Sorry for the confusion, I will write more slowly this time to help you understand. LTL’s post is about the expansion of a law that has not even been enforced yet, and DJ’s post does not advocate breaking the law, he is asking clarification so as to stay within its limits. This law is arbitrary, and will not result in getting Lake Martin back to the “On Golden Pond” days – if you want that, we have to stop development on the lake and destroy existing homes. Our place was built in 1973, so for me let’s bulldoze all homes/developments built after then, my neighbor has been there since 1967, so maybe his “back to” date is 1968, and we are out of there. The more we all point our fingers, pout and say “I don’t like that, make it illegal”, the more the laws will be expanded. By the way, check your door; I hear they are coming for your boat next.

Name:	CAT BOAT -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 8:46:47 AM

Summer Lover, I like your view point.

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting read....
Date:	4/12/2008 9:10:58 AM

CAT you are mentioned by name, but it is obviuos they don't know you too well cuz they called you Steve......lol.

URL: Boat Ban Expansion

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Wrong answer....
Date:	4/12/2008 10:14:00 AM

The key to the laws that are we already have is ENFORCEMENT!! Why pass more, 'tougher' laws if you aren't properly enforcing the ones that are already in existence? There are noise level laws. There are 'wake' laws. There are dangerous operation laws. When was the last time ANYONE was given a ticket for violating any of these? I have never seen it. I have been subjected to the 'thunder runs'. I know how dangerous and inconsiderate those 'boaters' are. But the answer is not to ban all who may drive a simular boat. I have also been subjected to fools on wave runners who have made me have to make swift, dangerous course corrections to avoid collision. Why aren't those little gnats of the boating world banned also? The answer now is it is only a matter of time and money till they are.

A freind told me recently of coming up river near the Boardwalk when a 'big boat' passed him on his starboard beam and cut to port right in front of him causing him to chop throttle to idle. The wake washed over his railing and deluged him and his family and bounced them around pretty good. But what ticked him off the most is that the water patrol was approaching from the oppisite direction, and just continued on as nothing had happened. He said they might not have known the extent of the wake he suffered, but there is NO WAY they didn't see him get cut off like that. They just continued on down river. I am not bashing the WP, but with enforcement like that, it is no wonder some folks feel invincible when at the helm. It is also no wonder that some wish to see them gone comepletely. Point is, enforce the laws already in existince before passing more.

Name:	longtimer -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 12:15:45 PM

"The more we all point our fingers, pout and say “I don’t like that, make it illegal”, the more the laws will be expanded."

So why is expanding laws in an effort to make things better a bad thing?

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/12/2008 12:52:20 PM

Any restriction on our freedoms is an attack against ALL of us. Please tell me how you think this ban will help make Lake Martin a better place for ALL of us? Where do YOU draw the line? My boat is an 18’ bowrider and will do 50 if I am lucky, is it OK if I continue to operate it on the lake as long as I do so safely? As far as the portion of the ban “26’ 11” and capable of going more than 60” – what kind of logic is this? A bigger or offshore boat at 75 is far safer than a bass boat with a 12” freeboard at 60. Why not ban boats shorter than 26’ 11” that are capable of going over 60, or just solve the problem entirely by putting a speed limit on the lakes?

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Careful summer Lover
Date:	4/12/2008 4:03:04 PM

Your aruments make too much sense, are rational and well reasoned, therefor you will be subjected to personal attacks. We can't have rational and intelligent discusssions, that is too much like being adults.

So tell me Longtimer, how does this make the lake a better place for Cat Boat? I have never heard anyone complain about him or how he operated his boat on the lake, yet now he is banned. I have in fact, heard him complain of the same discorteuous operators that the rest of us have encountered. What about PP and his family? How is the lake better for them? Well actaully it may be, since he has a 'grandfathered' boat, but what if he wants to sell it? Can the new owners still operate it here? I don't remeber that being adressed in the legislation, maybe it was, but I don't remember.

Bottom line is, it does NOT make the lake better for all of us. It makes the lake better for a few that foolishly think that you can legislate manners and personal responsibillity.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Careful summer Lover
Date:	4/12/2008 4:52:04 PM

Personal attacks? Sorry, I did not intend to generate that kind of feelings on this board. Come to think of it – that was someone else – “Bling It On” I mean bring it on, sorry CAT. I would at least like one (or more) of those in the majority on the lake who supports this ban to explain how it makes our lake a better place to be. I am willing to try almost anything except your ice cold Kool-Aid Reverend Jones.

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Careful summer Lover
Date:	4/13/2008 8:45:53 AM

I don't know how long you have been coming here, but there is a certain segment that will always stoop to personal attacks when they start loosing any argument. And for the most part, the only argument they have comes straight from the 'Kool Aide' picher. For the record, Longtimer is not one of the ones I am reffering too that will resort to the personal level, and I won't call any names out, but trust me, keep making posts like these and eventually at least one of them will not be able to control themselves and will start hurling insults.

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	my constituents,” Mask said
Date:	4/13/2008 8:49:09 AM

stinks to me, now I know who to vote against, when those stinkys come
up for elections again. thanks for that link LTL!

Name:	Sac -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 11:28:21 AM

Cat,
I understand from the people in Dadeville Courthouse that the 'Grandfather Clause will be in effect. Have you hear the same?

Name:	Sac -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 11:35:54 AM

Remember what George Carlin said..............you have no rights, you only have privileges and they can be taken away. AT ANY TIME............as has the privilege of a few by a group who has more privileges and connections. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, AND IT AIN'T RIGHT!

Name:	UncleSam -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 2:37:55 PM

Not true. We live in a nation of restrictions, and most of them we demanded. For example, you have the right to bear arms; however, you are restricted from firing those weapons whenever, wherever (and at whoever) you want. You have the right to own and drive a car, once you have met certain restrictions, such as becoming a licensed driver. But once you are, you still face restrictions: you can't drive as fast as you want, you can't drive the wrong way down a one-way street, you can't drive on the sidewalk when the traffic is backed up.

If too many people stop ignoring the restrictions, then new laws will be put in place. I believe that is what happened with this bill. Large boats are restricted from throwing wakes that cause damage to property; too many of them violated this restriction, and so a law had to be created that banned the boats. Had the people at fault-- the OWNERS and OPERATORS-- followed the restrictions that were already in place, tougher laws would not be necessary.

I still don't understand the ban in regards to speed; I haven't personally witnessed any dangerous situations because a boat was too fast, and I haven't heard of any either, except for the occasional moron who thinks that an island is going to get out of his way. But I won't pretend that I know all and see all that happens on the lake.

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	unclesam is so wrong
Date:	4/13/2008 4:06:08 PM

you are so wrong why should anyone read your post, having a car is NOT
a right it is a privilege, please show me where it says you have a right to
have a car, the founding fathers of this country are laughing their a$$es
off at how wrong you are, forget the rest of your misinformed post.
please go read the Constitution, while your at it find out what the flag with the broken up snake on it means, DON'T THREAD ON ME!
this is why this country is spining out of control, no one votes their convictions and people make up what they do not know, what a shame
you are.

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	don't tread on me
Date:	4/13/2008 4:19:04 PM

Name:	Sac -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 4:46:03 PM

The post regarding rights vs privileges was to show that it is very easy for local, state or federal gov't to take and give as they please therefore we have no rights just the privilege they allow. Please see Alabama Power etc....

Name:	UncleSam -	Reply
Subject:	So this is wrong?
Date:	4/13/2008 7:57:47 PM

"you have the right to bear arms; however, you are restricted from firing those weapons whenever, wherever (and at whoever) you want."

That's exactly what I posted, and exactly what you are calling "wrong" and "uninformed."

I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood; you would probably shoot me. Because, after all, you clearly believe that that is your right.

Name:	Aussie77 -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 8:42:33 PM

I don't think the poster got the point being made about the car and the rules and restrictions etc.

I do agree with what an earlier poster stated. We have many laws in place to deal with boaters that are unruly and being to noisey, driving to fast or too close to the shore. The "issues" that we are having are covered under current rules and regulations that are not being enforced. Why do we want to pass new rules that have absolutely no chance of being enforced?

The boat law was proposed by Senator Dial in response to some developers wanting to create a large resort with homes a golf corse and a ritz carlton style hotel on Lake Harris similar to the resort they built called Reynolds Plantation in Georgia. They wanted assurances that no large boats or house boats would be allowed on the lake. Alabama Power has more than 70% of the land and the developers would need some of that land to build the resort. With Georgia growing the way that it is and Lake Lanier drowing with over 1000 houseboats. As we all know the boat ban lost the vote to keep all 11 land locked lakes covered as Alabama Power originally wanted. You see that Martin, Harris(Wedowee) and Weiss the three that made the cut are all the closest to the Georgia border. Looks like Southern Company sees HUGE potentional for our beautiful little lake. If you do not like the few large boats that grace our waterways you will certainly not like what is to come.

I for one love the cottages and the families and don't mind what anyone drives. As long as someone is curteous and respectful then that is great!
I think we will soon see a lot more condos and crowding. A poster in another thread mentioned he wanted things to go back to the way they were "on golden pond style". But who determines that? was it he who had been there since 1980? or the guy next door how had been there since the 60's?

The fact is this boat ban has nothing to do with big boats or fast boats or erosian or pollution or anything like that.

Name:	CAT BOAT -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting read....
Date:	4/13/2008 9:01:53 PM

You have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.... Yall calm down.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 9:11:31 PM

No, partially true. We do live in a nation of restrictions, but for the most part I follow the Libertarian view – if you do not infringe on someone else’s rights or safety then why create laws to ban behavior? The second amendment addresses the right to keep and bear arms – that is an individual right – it says nothing about the use of the firearms; it states that we may have them. There are restrictions in place that deal with the improper USE of firearms, cars, boats, alcohol already.

How much time have you spent on the water observing what causes wake? From my observations there is more wake damage from the OPERATOR who is either inconsiderate or oblivious to what he is doing. If you operate even a small boat with a planing hull at just below planing speed, you will create a tremendous amount of wake, if you operate a wakeboard boat with 1,000 lbs of ballast; your goal is to …. everyone … CREATE BIG WAKE. Please explain why this law was put in place to minimize shore damage, and how it will accomplish that goal. These banned “assault boats” spend very little time in transit, and that is the only time they can create wake. You can consider it a condo on the water; enjoyed for long periods, but underway very little. To enjoy a wakeboard boat in the intended way, you have to keep moving, and generating more wake.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 9:18:25 PM

Actually, I did not say that I wanted the lake "to go back to the way they were on golden pond style", I said:

"This law is arbitrary, and will not result in getting Lake Martin back to the “On Golden Pond” days – if you want that, we have to stop development on the lake and destroy existing homes. Our place was built in 1973, so for me let’s bulldoze all homes/developments built after then, my neighbor has been there since 1967, so maybe his “back to” date is 1968, and we are out of there."

Other than that, I believe that you have pegged it.

Name:	Aussie77 -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 9:49:52 PM

Does anyone know the following clarification to the granfather clause. Do they know yet if they will offer permits? I realize that in the law it mentions some sort of permit program with possible yearly inspections. Anyone have any updates or new news? I even saw somebody post something about their boat being at the marina. A boat that is now classified as being too big does not HAVE to be located at a marina to be grandfathered in and get a permit does it? Probably a very stupid question but I would really appreciate somebody's response. Thanks!

It is nothing to do with the size of the boat but with the operator of the boat. As the owner of boats of many sizes I must admit it takes a lot more knowledge and skill to drive my big boat than one of my smaller boats or especially one of my jet ski's. People use Seadoo's as babysitters. Don't get me wrong, I love them too but it is all about responsible driving/ownership no matter the boat, seadoo, car or gun for that matter!

Name:	Aussie77 -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/13/2008 9:53:34 PM

Appologize Summer Lover...did not mean to misquote you...new I was close on your remarks, sorry I was not spot on. I am glad you were able to keep me honest. :O)

Name:	CAT BOAT -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/14/2008 10:08:41 AM

It is my understanding the only way to be grandfathered is to have your boat stored at a marina. I don't leave mine in the water. Oh well.

Name:	ALSCN -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/14/2008 11:08:47 AM

Okay, could be wrong, but from my understanding, yes, the boat has to be permanetly housed on lake martin. Therefor, you can not trailer it back and forth to the lake. I guess in order for it to be housed, you are going to have to prove that. Also, any boat that meets the criteria and was for sale by a dealer on Lake Martin. So that tells you why all the marinas have those nice big ones under wraps... they were waiting for this day to come.

As for the permits. It is my understanding that the Marine police are still waiting on official word on how they are suppose to respond to this law. You can pass a law all day long but you must also say what the penalties are and establish them or the law is no good. The Big Boat Owners (as many like to call us) who have a "residence boat" as defined by Alabama law already have to go through yearly inspections due to the sanitation systems that are on board our boat. I am guessing the easiest way for the permit to work is for them to give you the permit in conjunction with this inspection. Regulation, Regulation, Regulation....

You know, I really think this stinks, and I won't go into all of it because I know I get too upset. I will say this, I have studied constitutional law (from a univeristy, not on my own) and this goes against everything that I learned in school about the intentions of our forefathers. There are a lot of people who post that is is a result of us breakijng some law so tougher laws had to be inacted.... no, absolutely not. I have my children with me... we are respectful, we obey the guidelines. Does our boat create more wake? Not more than your wake board boat... trust me, I can have you read some nice paperwork done by a professional whose job is to know wakes... pretty interesting what a little information will do. Are we dangerous? The boat is not dangerous the driver is. You might want to mention this to your 14 year old who like to hang right behind my boat instead of maintaining the proper distance and putting my family in danger. From now on, I will make sure that one piece of equipment follows me to the lake everytime... that is my camera. That way I can take a picture, of the boat, driver and registration number and will turn it in to the marine police and sign the warrant myself. Am I bitter, no not really, heck the PP family has been blessed. Unlike many of our friends, we still get to keep our dream alive. But I will not be blamed for something I didn't do, and if the goal is to make the lake a "safer" place, I will do my fair share.

Name:	jwh445 -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/14/2008 11:10:02 AM

I am not a resident but, I am curious as to what this law states. If the laws' purpose is to reduce large wakes, why ban fast moving boats, as they produce the smallest wakes? I will be visiting soon, my boat is a 19ft bowrider with a Merc 175. Is my boat legal?

John

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Applause Applause
Date:	4/14/2008 11:26:15 AM

Good for you!! I wish you the best in your quest to show who the real problems are. A big wake is nothing but an excuse for those little gnats to fly by and get airborne. And if the issue IS big wakes, why were the 'wake boats' not included? By design their purpose is to create big wakes.

Name:	head -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/14/2008 11:30:27 AM

It is this week

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Thats not the way I remember
Date:	4/14/2008 11:30:45 AM

What about all that time it was parked at my house? LOL

Thats my story and I am sticking to it!!

Name:	Pier Pressure -	Reply
Subject:	Quickest way to see more laws?
Date:	4/14/2008 1:06:14 PM

Where was all of this property damage? Has it been reported? I use to drive pontoons and smaller boats on the water. If I see a wake coming, I steer into it. If my speed is not appropriate for the oncoming wake, I adjust. Any person driving a boat must understand the way their boat will react to a given wake/wave/situation, and react accordingly. Its called responsible operation FOR ALL PARTIES, not just the ones in the "Bigger" boat....

Name:	ALSCN -	Reply
Subject:	Applause Applause
Date:	4/14/2008 3:30:49 PM

Thanks LTL, but we both live in the real world and we both know this had nothing to do with wake. Never has. This is all dirty politics with dirty money lining pockets of those dirty policians who wanted it passed in the beginning.

Why would I say such a thing???

The truth (and I will try my hardest to leave my opinion out) is that when the good Senator from the East side of the state introduced this bill a few things happened. Number one, he could not come up with one reason why the bill would benefit the lake. I know, my husband and I both called. He wanted to compare apples and oranges, but nothing directly based at our lake on WHY???? He honestly on the phone tried to bring up the excuse of pollution? Ha! Because my boat has a sanitation system? I have to get inspected on an annual bases to make sure that are are absolutely no pollutants entering the lake.

There was never a public forum. So all of us can claim to be the "silent majority" all we want, but truth is, we all lost some rights on that day. We hire politicians to vote for the people, but how do they know how their people want to vote? Plus the lawmakers from across the state got to decide, what do they know about Lake Martin? Did they once ever call in an expert for any of the assumptions? I listened in that day through the website... there were no witnesses, no public forum... nothing.

Also, I spoke with a lot of individuals involved in the politics of this state, and once they found out APCO was involved... they stated "might as well give up"..... hmmmm, that's funny, I thought the people were suppose to control the state, not the power company... but hey... they keep the lights on :0)

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Applause Applause
Date:	4/14/2008 5:17:57 PM

Yea and they keep the lights burning very cheaply comparative to other areas, for that I am guess the get kudos. The strangest thing to me is that APCO is normally a very apolitical orginization, at least in public.The Georgia development company that started this all must have HEAVILY greased some pockets.

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	less laws, more enforcement!
Date:	4/15/2008 6:26:38 AM

THANK YOU ALSCN, that is the best post I have ever read on the subject,
god bless your family and never NEVER lessen your convictions!

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	George Carlin
Date:	4/15/2008 9:20:14 AM

you quote a dope smoking freak like george carlin on this subject, america is in bad shape.

Name:	Lovn_Lake_Livn -	Reply
Subject:	The slippery slope....
Date:	4/15/2008 10:58:12 AM

When are they going to outlaw canoes that use more than one paddle?

Seriously though, if you think this ban doesn't affect you, think again. The door has been opened, now anyone can be banned. Ski boats, wakeboard boats, waverunners, pontoons with too many people, bassboats that go over 60 mph..................... it's coming folks. Write the Legislators who are voting on this bill now.

zeb@zeblittlelawfirm.com
wmitchell@faulkner.edu
harriannesmith@graceba.net
bsingle164@yahoo.com
myronpenn28@hotmail.com
legislator@mclo.org
senatorerwin@aol.com
kbenefield@acs-isp.com
barry.mask@alhouse.org

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	thanks, lovin lake livin
Date:	4/15/2008 2:38:28 PM

e-mails have been sent, will vote against them in their next elections!

Name:	cg -	Reply
Subject:	thanks, Lovn_Lake_Livn
Date:	4/15/2008 2:44:58 PM

Name:	Lovn_Lake_Livn -	Reply
Subject:	thanks, lovin lake livin
Date:	4/15/2008 4:21:16 PM

Thank you, I agree. My thoughts exactly.

Name:	Aussie77 -	Reply
Subject:	Housing the boat at your house
Date:	4/15/2008 9:31:10 PM

I know that I already asked the question about the clarification on having your boat grandfathered in just needed a little more help. Of course my boat is too large and I do not store it at a marina and that is why I bring it up again. Of course the boat does not stay in the water at the dock all year due to the water disappearing. However, I would think since my boat is registered to lake property this would be ok and even if I were to take it out on a trailer and take it up to the River or the down to the Beach during the off time or a vacation (which believe me is not something that anyone wants to experience..) Thoughts?

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