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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/13/2009 1:21:14 PM
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I believe more each day that the Obama administration really desire to establish a socialist America, --and that it is doing this indirectly so that the majority of Americans will not realize how much their nation has changed till after the change has actually occured.
-One of the chief mechanism to establish this socialism is the Czar brain trust which is writing bills to be given to congressional stafffers and committees as well as executive office directives to be promulgated through government agencies.
-The socialist desires and goals are further evident by reading the beliefs of the new regulation cazar. NO one is vetting these guys. America should know who and what they are. following is an article on some of the beliefs of the regulatory czar.
-We must realize that these people have a mission and it is th drastic remaking of our country.
-Notice th eemphasis on using the race argument for why America is not socialist. And two, closely think about the use of "climate change" as the means to redistribute the country's wealth as a form of social justice.
Sunstein: Economic crises could usher in socialism
'With a little nudge our culture could go in many directions'
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Posted: October 11, 2009
6:43 pm Eastern
By Aaron Klein
© 2009 WorldNetDaily
Cass Sunstein
TEL AVIV – Economic crises can be used to usher socialism into the U.S., argued President Obama's newly confirmed regulatory czar, Cass Sunstein.
In his 2004 book "The Second Bill of Rights," Sunstein used the precedent of the Great Depression to point out that historic economic crises "provided the most promising conditions for the emergence of socialism in the U.S."
"With a little nudge or a slight change in emphasis, our culture could have gone, and could still go, in many different directions," wrote Sunstein.
Sunstein wrote in the same book the U.S. should move in the direction of socialism but the country's "white majority" opposes welfare, since such programs largely would benefit minorities, especially blacks and Hispanics.
"The absence of a European-style social welfare state is certainly connected with the widespread perception among the white majority that the relevant programs would disproportionately benefit African Americans (and more recently Hispanics)," wrote Sunstein.
In Sunstein's book, the Obama appointee openly argues for bringing socialism to the U.S. and even lends support to communism.
"During the Cold War, the debate about [social welfare] guarantees took the form of pervasive disagreement between the United States and its communist adversaries. Americans emphasized the importance of civil and political liberties, above all free speech and freedom of religion, while communist nations stressed the right to a job, health care and a social minimum."
Continued Sunstein: "I think this debate was unhelpful; it is most plausible to see the two sets of rights as mutually reinforcing, not antagonistic."
Sunstein claims the "socialist movement" did not take hold in the U.S. in part because of a "smaller and weaker political left or lack of enthusiasm for redistributive programs."
He laments, "In a variety of ways, subtle and less subtle, public and private actions have made it most difficult for socialism to have any traction in the United States."
Sunstein wants to spread America's wealth
Sunstein penned a 2007 University of Chicago Law School paper in which he debated whether America should pay "justice" to the world by entering into a compensation agreement that would be a net financial loss for the U.S. He argues it is "desirable" to redistribute America's wealth to poorer nations.
A prominent theme throughout Sunstein's 39-page paper, entitled "Climate Change Justice maintains U.S. wealth should be redistributed to poorer nations. He uses terms such as "distributive justice" several times. The paper was written with fellow attorney Eric A. Posner.
"It is even possible that desirable redistribution is more likely to occur through climate change policy than otherwise, or to be accomplished more effectively through climate policy than through direct foreign aid," wrote Sunstein.
He posited: "We agree that if the United States does spend a great deal on emissions reductions as part of an international agreement, and if the agreement does give particular help to disadvantaged people, considerations of distributive justice support its action, even if better redistributive mechanisms are imaginable.
"If the United States agrees to participate in a climate change agreement on terms that are not in the nation's interest, but that help the world as a whole, there would be no reason for complaint, certainly if such participation is more helpful to poor nations than conventional foreign-aid alternatives," he wrote.
Sunstein maintains: "If we care about social welfare, we should approve of a situation in which a wealthy nation is willing to engage in a degree of self-sacrifice when the world benefits more than that nation loses."
REINTERPRET THE CONSTITUTION:
In April 2005, Sunstein opened up a conference at Yale Law School entitled "The Constitution in 2020," which sought to change the nature and interpretation of the Constitution by that year.
Sunstein has been a main participant in the movement, which openly seeks to create a "progressive" consensus as to what the U.S. Constitution should provide for by the year 2020. It also suggests strategy for how liberal lawyers and judges might bring such a constitutional regime into being.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/13/2009 5:07:29 PM
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I don't find this any more alarming than I did the Neoconservative movement that was prevelant within the Bush Administration.
From a purely intellectual perspective, maybe the step after democracy is a form of socialism. No one has ever known what the evolution of democracy would be. Maybe it will be a new intellectual construct of socialist democracy. All of the great societies throughout history eventually failed and became something else. Some of them ceased to exist. There is no reason to think that the US will be any different. We've already seen a lessening of our influence in the world. We can shape our destiny, but we can't stop change.
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/13/2009 5:31:59 PM
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You actually don't find this more alarming?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
No she
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Date:
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10/13/2009 5:55:37 PM
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doesn't. She worships the messiah and he can not do wrong. Yet she has failed to say even one thing he has done since taken office that she is personally proud of and that she feels is positive for america.
The guy and his whole administration is a joke. And yes yankee is right on the mark that Obama is trying to change america to a socialist country.
He is causing more soldiers to die than necessary because he can not or will not approve more troops that the generals are asking for. He does not even have a clue what loyalty to your country means. If given the choice he would give Acorn more money before the military.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Hound
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Date:
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10/13/2009 6:22:53 PM
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You are truly frightening. Thank God you're out of civil service, even though I'm sure there are thousands with your beliefs still screwing up things. A belief that change toward socialism is inevitable and the influence of America is waning in the world is certainly the feeling of most socialist believing liberal democrats, but it won't happen if intelligent people of this country wake up next year and purge the idiots in Washington. It's happened before and it'll happen next year, just watch.
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That is what happens when you work or the government, they do not make anything, only tax others and consume resources from the economy. They bigger government becomes, the worse the problem. We need government so I am not saying that ... but when it starts taking away are freedoms and doing things that belong in free enterprise it is harmful. As others have pointed out, for every $3 tax dollars the government takes in ... only $1 comes out.
It is a very inefficient machine. Government should NEVER compete with free enterprise. My God it is capitalism that made us great and the envy of the world.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/13/2009 10:42:40 PM
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No I don't. This is just one man's intellectual view.
The neocons actually convinced Bush that we should go into a country that posed no threat to us and depose it's leaders. We have sacrificed the lives of our troops, spent billions of dollars, increased the national debt, and for what? To see if we could build a democracy in the Middle East? Iraq is much worse off today, there is no democracy there (in fact, once we leave, it will probably fall to a civil war and make it vulnerable to Iran), and we're much futher behind in the real war on terror -- the Taliban is regaining it's position in Afghanistan and the bad guys are still living in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan. I won't even go into how the rest of the world views us. And while we were having "adventures in Iraq" the financial infrastructure of the country fell apart.
I don't see how we should be more alarmed. People voted the way they did because they didn't like the path this country was following. What about Katrina? We failed to help our own citizens, but let a tsuanmi hit South East Asia and we're all over it.
Those of you who still think we're the greatest nation on Earth and that everyone wants to be like us are living in a pumpkin shell. The US has been seriously evolving since the late 1960's. The gap between the haves and the have nots has gotten bigger -- there isn't much of middle class anymore.
Some of the people here chose to go about with blinders on, not realizing that changes are coming whether they agree with them or not. I think it is a pretty sad commentary on our country and on this state that anyone who can send their kids to private school does, because the state of public education is so bad. People will give their kids all sorts of material BS that amounts to nothing, but scream like banshees at the thought of higher taxes. For the first time in my life, I'm living in a place with no community services or resources. And I find that alarming. Not some guy in Washington who has written a book intellectualizing socialism.
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You don't know sh*t. You hide out in your little gated communities and drink your fine wines and enjoy your toys. Being a lawyer is not much better than working for the government as far as contributing to society.
You claim to have come from a blue collared background and worked your way up -- too bad you feel you have to kick those behind you. You and I are the same age. I don't know how you have forgotten those that made it possible for you to be where you are today. 40 years ago, they wouldn't have let you through the front door. And I for one am glad that change happened. We're a stronger country because we can change. But, think for a minute where you might be today if those changes hadn't happened.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/14/2009 1:16:42 AM
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-lots of differing ideas , --all passionately expressed.
-Of course America is going to change. America of today is different than America of the 1960s. Some of us have benefitted from some of teh changes, and some not. At one time unions were needed; then they over-reached. Discrimination needed to be revresed; now reverse discrimination needs to be reigned in. The War on Poverty was waged, and poverty has seemed to have won. Etc, etc, etc, ...
-Yes, change is inevitable; but certain results are not.
=What the last election was about, in my assessment, was a rejection of 1) Republican spending, 2) a tiredness of an ineffectual Iraq strategy, and 3)jobs. The people wanted those things changed.
-The American people did not, and would not, vote to make America a socialist country in a socialist world.
-Almost every example of a socialist country is an example of failure. Almost every worker in almost every socialist country throughout the world had but one dream, -as so well song by Neil Diamond-, that dream was "Coming to America!"
-Only incompetent people "let" change happen, waiting to see where it goes. Competent people have a vision, attempt to "manage" change to conform with that vision, and keep on gonig till that vision is a reality.
-This is a time of competing visions for America. Unfortunately, while the Czar brain trust is working to their long-term vision for America, they are distracting the rest of us with short-term changes focusing on short-term results. most of us are worrying about individual trees being trimmed or cut down, while the forrest is being ravaged!
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Hound I used to respect your point of view even though I did not agree many times. But after reading this you seem totally out of touch, in denial and the one with blinders on. Very sad. It is so far off based I would not know where to begin. Because if you really believe what you wrote, it would be a waste of solid logic to try and share reality.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hound - a response
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Date:
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10/14/2009 6:06:44 AM
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Wow ... you don't know anything about me. I never forget my background and where I came from. I volunteer extensively to help others and contribute heavily to non profits that I believe in their mission. I actually put action behind my beliefs.
It is because I have not forgetten where I came from is why I believe so strongly that the socialist direction Obama and the dems are taking us is so wrong.
Giving people opportunity and allowing them to be successful on their own is what has made america great. How many immigrants have you seen that have come to this country and become wealthy. Why because there is opportunity for all. Penalizing peoples success to give to others will never be the answer. There needs to be the desire to lift themselves up. Handout compound the problem and contributes to future generations living the same life and cycle. Offering a helping hand and direction to make ones self better is far different that "taking care" of people that do not want to change their lives. Government can not be the nipple to feed off at the expense of others just because they choose not to make more of their lives.
So yes my struggles while I was young built pride in success and accomplishments. My mom did not work and my dad busted his back side to provide for his family. There were plenty of weeks the money ran out and meals were slim pickins. But we pulled together and made do.
As for attorneys being the same as government employees ... NOT! I share the lawyer jokes just like others ... but it is a living prosecuting the laws of the land. And in my case mostly in the finacial area from our great wizards in congress. More than half the judges do not even understand them so you protect your clients from incorrect implementation. At least lawyers make their money off free enterprize ... no laws, no need for us ... more laws, more need. Unfortunately we have to compete for our clients both through quality and price .... I view "most" government employees as those that can not make it in free enterprise so their is not a focus on quality of service .... and when they need more money they raise taxes or implement more laws.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hound - one other thing
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Date:
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10/14/2009 6:17:11 AM
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If you are refering to civil rights ... I will agree that driving equality for all was a change that is positive for our country. But take a look back at the major change agents to make that happen ... almost all republican. In fact many democrats, especially from the south, were the ones that fought that change the most.
But that is history ... equality and opportunity is available for all. We have a black president, lets end that discussion. The sad thing is he is not driving change that will make a difference that will get much of the black community out of the cycle they are in ... his policies contribute to keeping them there ... but does assure himself a solid voting base for his socialist agenda.
I want people to have the opportunity to lift themselves, not envy others success and want some of their pie.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
A Response
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Date:
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10/14/2009 6:22:53 AM
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Funny, how my "unworthy" experience netted me more than a few high paying offers to go to private enterprise when I retired. I didn't take them, because I wanted to leave it behind me. So, someone out there in industry apparently thinks that government experience is worth something.
Yeah, I'm sure you "give back" all the while looking down your nose. I ask you where you would be if Johnson had not passed the civil rights act. And if MLK had not marched. Those were labeled as "socialist" changes back then too. think about it.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
A Response
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Date:
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10/14/2009 6:54:54 AM
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I said "most" government employees. I don't know you so I can't judge. But it certainly seems you can even though you don't know me. If you knew even a small piece of what I do to help others and give back ... I doubt you would say I look down my nose. But whatever ... it is always those that do nothing, but talk a good game and think government is the answer (so they do not have to get involved to make a change) that are casting stones.
Hound ... you really are a typical liberal. You think you have this caring view of helping others ... but in reality you just want government to do it so you don't have to get your hands dirty.
News flash .... that changes NOTHING. Being personally involved to help others be successful and learn how to make more of their lives is what makes a difference ... one person at a time. It does much more than some government social worker program.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
last comment
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Date:
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10/14/2009 7:00:53 AM
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Action always gets more results than talk.
The interesting thing is ... I always find what I would say are conservative republicans helping in the community and non profit organizations teaching business skills, helping young minorities start a business, mentoring them, etc. It is funny I never seem to meet the big talking liberals there.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Wow
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Date:
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10/14/2009 8:11:23 AM
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You might want to go back in history and determine who was actually against the Civil Rights movement. Hint; mostly Democrats.
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| Name: |
CAT BOAT
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| Subject: |
My favorite post to this threa
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Date:
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10/14/2009 9:19:11 AM
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Yall know I don't get very involved in these political threads, but sometimes I am forced to read them because of the lack of post on other topics (my excuse anyway). After reading all of this, I found Yankees thread below very interesting.
By Yankee;;
-lots of differing ideas , --all passionately expressed.
-Of course America is going to change. America of today is different than America of the 1960s. Some of us have benefitted from some of teh changes, and some not. At one time unions were needed; then they over-reached. Discrimination needed to be revresed; now reverse discrimination needs to be reigned in. The War on Poverty was waged, and poverty has seemed to have won. Etc, etc, etc, ...
-Yes, change is inevitable; but certain results are not.
=What the last election was about, in my assessment, was a rejection of 1) Republican spending, 2) a tiredness of an ineffectual Iraq strategy, and 3)jobs. The people wanted those things changed.
-The American people did not, and would not, vote to make America a socialist country in a socialist world.
-Almost every example of a socialist country is an example of failure. Almost every worker in almost every socialist country throughout the world had but one dream, -as so well song by Neil Diamond-, that dream was "Coming to America!"
-Only incompetent people "let" change happen, waiting to see where it goes. Competent people have a vision, attempt to "manage" change to conform with that vision, and keep on gonig till that vision is a reality.
-This is a time of competing visions for America. Unfortunately, while the Czar brain trust is working to their long-term vision for America, they are distracting the rest of us with short-term changes focusing on short-term results. most of us are worrying about individual trees being trimmed or cut down, while the forrest is being ravaged!
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Sissy.... NT
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Date:
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10/14/2009 9:52:01 AM
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hope you are wrong
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Date:
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10/14/2009 10:18:36 AM
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Hound, I hope you are wrong about your views because they are so negative and depressing. All societies change over time but there has never been an experiment like the United States of America. An interesting book called the 5,000 Year Miracle traces the path to the formation of this country and explains how we got to a totally unique form of government and more importantly, a kind of people that allowed this to become the greatest nation for good in the entire world for all time.
I look at the American lives lost to bring peace and prosperity to so much of the world and it saddens me to hear people like you blithely accepting our march toward socialism. But I guess you figure you will be long gone before we reach equal misery. However, as for me I care about my children and grandchildren and plan to keep fighting. You have given up and its sad. Or worse yet, this is what you want for your children and grandchildren which is more the pity.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
A Socialist America
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Date:
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10/14/2009 10:41:17 AM
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Yankee, I believe it is not incompetent people that will let our slouch to socialism continue. It is a combination of apathy, greed, laziness and a lack of courage to speak the truth.
What I have never been able to understand is how people can repeat the failures of the past and ignore what has worked. Socialism has never worked because it denies our fundamental human nature. All contemporary socialists have one thing in common. They assume that those that preceded them and failed (as they all have in all of history) lacked the intellectual prowess to make socialism work. Sadly, 10, 20, 30 years from now the new contemporary socialists will look back at this era and assume that the Messiah and his czars likewise lacked their intellectual capacity to make socialism work. A sure sign of insanity to repeat the same actions and expect a different outcome......
Meanwhile, conservatives (not necessarily Republicans in Congress as we saw over the last 8 years) will continue to promote what actually has been demonstrated to work. Our job is to convince a majority of Americans what works and what will work and we need to promote politicians that will not abandon their conservative principals when they relocate inside the beltway. Perhaps that is our form of insanity as it seems that every time we have a majority or control the White House or both they eventually lose their way. Those that don't are marginalized and demonized into oblivion by the left and the government media.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Amazing thread..
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Date:
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10/14/2009 7:58:04 PM
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Hound really thinks that national evolution to socialism is positive and/or inevitable?? That's what I got from her posts (after sifting thru her experience as a Pentagon civil servant.) I just cannot think of any good, just or thriving socialist nation state in the history of modern civilization.. Help me out Hound, I'm perplexed..
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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Amazing thread..
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Date:
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10/14/2009 10:40:37 PM
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Husker, Hound has obviously never spent much time in Omaha, North Platte, or Norfolk. Had she done that she would have a better appreciation for what comprises the backbone of America. She is from New Jersey and spent 30 years thinking she was being exposed to the real America by being a civil servant.
I spent my four years in the five sided funny farm and know exactly where her "I know everything better than you" attitude comes from. The culture in that arena breeds a superiority attitude. "We are in charge so we must know better than the lowly paeans". Spending significant time elsewhere (Nebraska, Maryland, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas) as well as living (not visiting) two foreign countries gives one a little broader sense of what this country is all about.
We here in Montgomery are represented by two Republican Senators and a Republican Congressman (Rogers) -= other than a phone call saying "stick to your guns" there is not a lot that I know of that we can do to influence things. Maybe we will find someone else's Tea Party to attend. All I know is that just laying down and accepting Hound's version of change is not what we intend to do. Its kind of like the lottery. If you buy a ticket yuou have a chance of winning. If you don't buy a ticket you WILL NOT win.
By the way, I haven't been following Big Red this year. How they doing?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
For the Record
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Date:
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10/15/2009 9:50:31 AM
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I have never said that I thought socialism was inevitable. All I said that as a INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE it is interesting to wonder if that will be the evolution of democracy. I gather that no one here ever just takes an idea and rolls it around in their brain just to see where it goes. There have been many models developed about the evolution from dictatorship to democracy, many of which I read when I worked with African programs. Also many models and ideas about how a transition to democracy might work and what might drive it. So I find it INTELLECTUALLY interesting to think about an evolution from democracy and what might drive it.
I think we are living in interesting times. Now that I am retired, I have plenty of time to think about a lot of different things. The evolution of our society and government is one of the things I like to think about. What comes next? How will it happen? Who will drive it?
Hodja, I can't imagine why you would think that just because I worked in the Pentagon, that I have a know it all attitude. In fact, having spent all that time in government, the only thing I'm convinced is that how little we know or understand.
But, you might be interested to know, that when I worked in the field, I used to think that you had to have some insight to be working in the Pentagon and making policy decisions. Once I was there, I realized that no, that isn't the case. The further you are from the problem, the less you understand about it. I could put pen to paper, write a policy that people in the building thought was terrific, and only have it really screw things up where the rubber meets the road. In fact, I was something of an anomoly among the civilians I worked with, because I had worked in the field. One of my bosses was a 'true believer" that our most important job was to hand down "concise" policy to the field. Occassionally, when the devil possessed me, I used to let him know that the fact was the people in the field didn't care much about policy and might not even read it, unless they were trying to figure out how to get around it. Made him mad as h*ll.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
For the Record
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Date:
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10/15/2009 1:38:09 PM
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It is your posts here that give me the indication of a know-it-all attitude. Apparently that observation is shared by others as well.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
For the Record
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Date:
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10/15/2009 3:40:16 PM
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I doubt I have more of a "know it all" attitude than some of the other posters here. My experience base is considerably different than most of the other people here. I think when you get to a certain point in your life, and have lived various experiences you feel you pretty much know certain things.
But, that's okay. I don't post here that much. My reading of this board has really only served to galvanize my views, not change them. That's how it works on most forums -- those that swim against the group think are ostrasized. There is safety in the group think.
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
My favorite post to this threa
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Date:
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10/16/2009 10:38:55 AM
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Look at my name. I am sad for my grandchildren... your grandchildren. I don't think I'll live long enough for it to hurt really bad. But THEY will. Their spirits will be fettered and their sweat taxed til it looks like blood. Their brilliant minds will be smeared like overwatered oatmeal while their dreams must drag the mushroom anchor of socialism along a muddy bottom. How did we let this happen? Sheepdogs can never sleep... we slept. The wolves have outnumbered us and we're too old to fight. Are we? We had better start soon - for the wolves are among the sheep.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
My favorite post to this threa
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Date:
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10/16/2009 10:49:49 AM
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Well spoken. Can't wait for Hound to bloviate all over this one.
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
From the Heart
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Date:
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10/16/2009 2:18:09 PM
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I get the feeling that Hound is speaking from her heart. Jimmy Carter speaks from his heart. I think you get my point.
Sad
Sad, because this type of thinking has moved our great country from industry to entitlement. This thinking is the grist for global warming... and health care reform... and "separation of church and state"...usw
Our forrfathers wrote a constitution designed to protect us from this sort of thinking. Millions of men and women have died protecting that constitution... and us. But if you keep referring to the Constitution as a "dynamic document"... folks become desensitized to that self distructive concept. And, like homosexuality... it becomes acceptable. All sorts of tangential routes can then be explored. In the name of "change".
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
From the Heart
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Date:
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10/16/2009 2:26:55 PM
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...and suddenly you find... YOU CAN'T GO BACK!
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An "iron" major. I remember them from my Pentagon days. They go about all charged up and intense, until they get promoted to LTC and calm down. Too bad a promotion didn't happen here.
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
Ah
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Date:
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10/16/2009 3:30:07 PM
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I believe the messenger has been attacked.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Ah
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Date:
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10/16/2009 4:22:13 PM
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That is a plumb shi++y response.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Ah
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Date:
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10/16/2009 4:41:19 PM
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You know, from your posts I detect a significant anti-uniformed military - or at least military officer - prejudice. You must have run into some doozies in your 30 years or so??? I have seen the type -- rampant ambition and arrogance to boot (no, you may not meet my wife). We all aren't that way.....
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
Ah
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Date:
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10/16/2009 6:55:47 PM
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hmmm... you are speaking to Hound?
I am retired military. I started out a private and retired a Major. I couldn't have been too charged up in the end - I commanded a desk (not at the puzzle palace). I am certainly not anti-military.
I am an "originalist"... and I do take heat, spears, and darts from the "dynamic" Constitution folks. I am an independent and I like science and history. THAT gets me in hot-water too!
That said, I fought for their right to speak their piece. And, it would be a dangerous place if they couldn't. I respect Hound for speaking hers. We just don't agree.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Yup, Hound comes clean..
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Date:
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10/16/2009 7:04:09 PM
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Typical liberal vision of the military, disdain. "Iron major" was a term that existed during my 5 years at the Pentagon, I was one of them.. Guys/gals that had ideas that many in the institution feared (mostly by secure civil servants) because they often brought fresh perspective from the field. I was promoted to Lt Col there and still never lost my perspective of what I thought best for our Country.. Hound's post is personally offensive, but I will get over it..
Mr. Hodja.. Huskers are on a roll, lost a heart breaker to Virginia Tech (15 to 16), took care of Mizzo, but have there weekend cut out for 'em with Texas Tech. Go Big Red!
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No, I actually love the military. My family all served, including my husband. I have admired their ability to come into a new job, assimulate themselves and pretty soon it was like they worked there forever. I had a number of people that came into my office as military, and I hired them back as civilians. They were some of the best people in my organization. One Master Sargent who was our office admin was the most professional person I have ever met. He retired and came back to our organization. He's just been promoted into a Management position, and I have no doubt that he will be an SES before he is done. Even after he retired he continued to mentor the NCOs in our organization.
I had one AF Major that came to work in my office. He fought me all the time. He was dumb as dirt. Didn't assimulate, didn't bond with the other military. I can only assume that he had been promoted filling someone's quota along the way. He was an exception.
I've known some asses along the way -- but I suspect they would have been asses whether they wore the uniform or not.
Alahusker, Sometimes it's a fine line between between "doing what's right for the country" and being a loose canon. Since you became a senior commander, I assume that you were prudent in your judgement. In my view, there is nothing wrong with speaking up when the time is right. But some people continually kick up dust because they always think they know better than their bosses.
BTW, it seems to me that a lot of you have a bias against civilians. Too bad, because so many civilians were working to support you when you wore the uniform.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And Alahusker
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Date:
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10/16/2009 8:33:35 PM
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I don't know any civilians that "feared" iron majors for their fresh perspective -- mostly we laughed at them for their lack of persective and got their bosses to over rule them so we could get the job done. Since you worked in the building you know that there is normally a large gap between the "way we would like it to be" and the "way it is". When you are a staff officer you learn pretty quick that the name of the game is compromise between the staffing offices. Of course, I worked in the Army Staff, not the AF staff.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Shameful
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Date:
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10/16/2009 9:17:13 PM
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Nothing more need be said. What a low thing to say to someone that served their country. Its one thing to disagree but to stoop that low is really disguisting......
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
And Alahusker
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Date:
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10/16/2009 10:15:24 PM
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Sorry Hound, you are just wrong.. I was hired at the Pentagon, by a 2 star (I taught him to fly the B-52), and advised to be careful of the "tyranny of the action officer." Because, he said, 'if we were organized and had a vision with a leader, we set agendas'.. So, he added, 'be sure where you are leading train'.. His caution and advise shaped my career.. A real lesson in leadership.. Screw the conventional way of thinking, do what you believe is right, organize and lead.. To hell with the institution.. The lesson a key, getting me to senior command and probably kept me from being a general officer... no regrets..
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Ah
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Date:
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10/16/2009 10:33:06 PM
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Absolutely speaking to Hound, and apologize for any inference I was speaking to you.
To Hound - you profess to admire AD military ... but your posts indicate otherwise. That's the danger of relying on the written word vs interpersonal communication. I accept your words - but please be mindful of the way your posts might be perceived.
I, for one, value the stability and wise judgment of my civilian counterparts...indeed some of my favorite sayings come from a GS-12 I worked with at the funny farm. A former RAF and USAF pilot, one of his favorite sayings was that the two most useless things to him as a pilot were the air above him and the runway behind him :>) Husker, you agree?
Peace, and may change be for the positive as opposed to what I percieve change to be today.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
No
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Date:
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10/16/2009 10:40:21 PM
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Ah, so all us AF pukes (Husker excepted) are painted with the same brush...dumb as rocks...overly ambitious....hey, I can relate to that...not.
Even the AF slips up and lets a dolt through every now and then. But wait a minute,, they were smart enough not to promote me!
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I misled you. Almost all of the military in my office in OSD were AF. Just the one guy was dumb as dirt. The others were just great guys who were smart and savy. Several of them were hired back as civilians and they attracted other smart people, both military and civilian to our organization.
The Master Sargent I described -- also AF.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And Alahusker
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Date:
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10/17/2009 8:27:13 AM
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Well, you were obviously in the Air Staff and probably some time ago? In the time I served in the Pentagon on the Army Staff, that kind of thinking would not have worked and would not have been tolerated. When I was there, you worked an issue until you had a fully coordinated position. I also worked for a 2 star who worked for a 4 star. You can only fall on your sword for an issue so many times.
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
A Purple Assignment
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Date:
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10/17/2009 9:36:10 AM
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In Iraq (I was recalled from retirement to serve all of 2007 in Baghdad, we were "purple"... that is ALL services - men and women - working together in a joint assignment (in this case WIAS). Officers' performance was more likely to be based on individual attitude,not service of origin. To be sure, the difference in training doctrine was obvious, but everyone understood the 5 paragraph order and knew how to get on board with that system. We had reserve, and national guard, and IRR people in the HQ (MNF-I). My two star star (DCS) started out AF and then became USMC (the son of a classmate of my father at USNA). My boss was a Navy CAPT and then an AF Col. Each change brought a change in demeanor. I was replaced by an AF LtCol. WE also had Brits and Aussie's in our shop.
And I went out to work with Iraqis... that is grist for a whole different post.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
A Purple Assignment
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Date:
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10/17/2009 10:51:48 AM
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I'd be interested in hearing what that was like.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
And Alahusker
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Date:
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10/17/2009 8:00:13 PM
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Right, Air Staff.. Working with good guys from the field, supporting general officers, we were actually given enuff latitude to introduce make some novel concepts, like PGM's and GPS on B-52s.. Pressed the issues thru a lot of reluctant people, (yes Hound, secure GS types mainly) and years later flew with the technology during the first gulf war.. I liked and respected many civil servants I worked with during my years as a staff puke.. But somehow I could not forget that I pledged an 'Oath of Office.' That somehow made a difference ..
I await the triade..
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And Alahusker
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Date:
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10/18/2009 8:26:13 AM
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Civilians also pledge an "oath of office". When one is hired, you stand before a flag, raise your right hand and make the pledge.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
And Another Debate
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Date:
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10/18/2009 5:19:39 PM
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What is the difference between the pledge that a Civil Servant takes and the Oath a commissioned officer takes upon accepting his or her commission?
Enquiring minds want to know!
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
Army Officer Oath
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Date:
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10/18/2009 5:49:44 PM
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I ________________________, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.
From: DA FORM 71, JUL 1999
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Army Officer Oath
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Date:
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10/19/2009 12:11:17 AM
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The civilian one is the same except for the part about being an officer and accepting the appointment. It goes I,_________ do solonley swear, etc. I took it the first time when I went to work for the government, and repeated it every time I moved to a new organization. The last time, was when I graduated from the Federal Executive Institute, when we retook the oath as a class.
One note of trivia -- when Max Thurman was the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, he decided that civilian oath of office would be administered with the same amount of ceremony as the military. Up until that time, new hires would be sworn in the personnel office, often with a small flag on a desk. Afterwards, it was always done with a certain amount of ceremony.
I know the military often retake it at the time of promotion or some other significant event. It's a very moving ceremony.
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