Forum Thread

Lake Martin Topics

(Lake Martin Specific)

111,143 messages

Updated 4/25/2024 7:30:23 PM

Off-Topic

Lakes Online Forum

83,605 messages

Updated 4/25/2024 9:33:24 PM

Boat Maintenance

Lakes Online Forum

5,193 messages

Updated 4/3/2024 3:47:36 AM

Lake Martin Fishing

(Lake Martin Specific)

4,169 messages

Updated 4/16/2024 3:16:57 AM

Jokes

Lakes Online Forum

4,169 messages

Updated 4/15/2024 11:05:05 PM

Sports

Lakes Online Forum

4,260 messages

Updated 3/24/2024 9:24:45 AM

Grilling & Recipes

Lakes Online Forum

2,976 messages

Updated 3/20/2024 11:53:43 PM

Lake Martin SCUBA

(Lake Martin Specific)

169 messages

Updated 5/31/2023 1:39:35 PM

Tallapoosa River Topics

Lakes Online Forum

98 messages

Updated 4/15/2024 1:00:58 AM

Forum Usage Rules

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	Follow Up to the WOW post Below..
Date:	7/22/2010 8:44:07 PM

Hound, Martini, Yankee, Phycho, WW, Hodja, Fish, etc., etc. Each with an opinion and each with "Practical" experience with their exposure to differing ideas. Most of the time it is civil discourse on current events.
Most of the time the posts are educational and informative. And most of the time each participant actually reads and understands the argument.
I think that one could put all these people in a room and expect them to come out with a reasonable solution to a problem, or a policy. Certainly compromised, but at least a result that is workable for all??
My question is this?? Why cannot our elected officials do the same?? And Why do we Voters not demand that they do so??

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 10:14:55 AM

Mack, unfortunately although the premise of your question is reasonable it is faulty. And that is you base your question on the assumption that politicians want to solve problems. Sadly that is not their goal. Their primary goal is to be reelected. Their secondary goal, which is related to the first, is to hold onto power. And their tertiary goal is to enrich themselves and their friends and contributors in order to accomplish their first two goals.

If you put all of us in a room and said your goal is to solve this or that problem and nothing else, we could probably accomplish it. But if you told us our goal was to come up with a solution that you could convince those that were like minded or could be convinced to vote for your approach we would never fix anything. We would simply pander to our various constituencies in order to garner their favor and their votes. And that pandering would result in diametrically opposed solutions and no hope for compromise.

And that my friend is why government should be limited and why more government at the local level is better than more government at the federal level where they are removed from their constituents, aren't impacted directly by their decisions and don't have to worry about getting dressed down by some lady in a grocery store or at church because of something they did.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 2:04:53 PM

You know MM, I read your response and I wondered one thing. Which state or local government would you hold up as a shining example of how things should be? I've lived in a lot of towns and in 3 states now, and I've never seen much of anything out of state and local governments beyond corruption and idiocy. And a lot of greed to boot. So I'm am (sincerely) wondering, what state or local government could you point to saying using their model, we should leave all governence to the state and local level. I've seen a lot of situations that were vastly improved with a face to face meeting. I would regularly see my engineers at absolute logerheads with industry, only to find common ground once we sat around the table. There would always be that magic "ah-so" moment. Maybe because of the confines of a small room, people figure out what it is that they actually disagree on, and sometimes it turns out to be a very small thing. Before they sit down, they seem to make assumptions and speculations about what the other guy is really intending or thinking, and may be totally false. Why can't our elected officials do this? Because there is no one to make them. They are addicted to the sound bite, and making the assumption that they are appealing to their constituency, when in fact, their constituents would prefer that they shut up and do something.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 2:45:10 PM

Well I live in Cobb County, Georgia and I can tell you that our local government is pretty good. Don't know where you lived before but that is why home prices have stayed pretty stable, crime is under control, the schools are some of the best in the state and taxes are low. Of course Fulton and Dekalb Counties and the city of Atlanta are a mess. That's why people flee the inner city for the suburbs where the local government is much better, taxes are lower, schools are better, etc.

The point is pretty straight forward. If you live in a city or county with dysfunctional government you can move a few miles away and find better government. If you have a dysfunctional state government it may be more of a pain but people every day move out of California or New York to escape crime, traffic, high taxes and crummy government. However, if the Federal government is dysfunctional the only place to go is another country which is a lot more complicated, although I have friends from South Africa, Mexico, Germany and other countries that came here because compared to those countries we used to be much better off.

Hound, it sounds to me that you didn't do a very good job picking the places you lived. I specifically chose Georgia and Cobb County because of the good government. I recognize having lived in New Jersey and the DC area you really didn't have many good choices but I also notice you didn't pick any of those states to retire in. Why was that? I suspect you came south for the weather, the low taxes, low cost of living, relatively inexpensive housing, the lack of congestion, etc. Do you think it was some magical good luck that the south has those attributes? Believe me if we relocated the California legislature to Alabama they would screw it up in no time. But there are plenty of lakes up there but you made the rational choice to move here. You are proof positive of my thesis that local government is better in some places than others but the federal government is the same everywhere.

Thank you Hound for allowing me to use you to prove my point.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 7:09:49 PM

I moved here because this is where Feb wanted to live. It's certainly not for the superior school systems, local government with vision or excellent public services. The county I lived in VA had one of the most excellent school systems in the country, lots of county services ( including a state of the art gym where my membership fee was $40. per month) Money was not a factor in our decision to live here. Feb's family is here and that's why we decided to retire here. One thing I do appreciate is Alabama state officials initatives to bring jobs to the state. That was not a factor in NJ or VA for obvious reasons, but I think Riley and his predessors have done a great job on that front. Glad you found a place where you find the local government excellent. I'll have to do some reading.

Name:	Yankee06 -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 7:43:20 PM

In my view, -Members of congress have three primary objectives while serving in D.C.: 1) reelection, 2) reelection, and 3) reelection -House members up the chances of achieving these three major goals (i.e., reelection) by gerrymandereing their districts so these districts are upwards of 80% ideologically pure. Thus, teh house member must constantly support those bills and actions that keep his "ideologically pure" constituents happy. Since these house members are up for election every two years, they don't have time to work on "compromise" or coming to logical vs ideological solutions to problems. -The only time independent voters in these congressional districts usually come into play in an important way is during presidential election years. At these times, house, senate, and national candidates become more moderate in their public positions, but only for teh purpose of snagging independent voters and after the election often go back to their old ways and do not take new courses of action to reach logical, long-term effective legislation. -Remember, if every time a member of congress sits down to work on an issue, his first three priorities are reelection, reelection, and reelection, it's hard to think about priorities four, five , and six, no matter what they are. -The Health Bill was a great example of this, ...however, under this theory, I do have problems understanding how teh leadership convinced some of the blue dog dems to commit poitical suicide. ...but then, when we hear about the offers of a new Louisiana Purchase, free Nebraska medicaid, Florida medicare exemptions, and public jobs, maybe it isn't so hard to understand after all.

Name:	Psycho -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 8:51:01 PM

Mack, I think youre right. I believe we could do a lot better job than the ones there now...mainly

because we would make decisions based on what we thought was good for America.

I know one thing. If I were to bribe an elected official, I would get sent to prison...but when the president

does it, people say thats just the way things are done. Its been done for so long that people dont seem

to see the problem with it. If someone has to pay you to vote for a bill, That means you think that the

bill is a bad idea...but if I get enough out of it I'll vote for it anyway. Is there something wront with this picture???

I think it would be a mandatory 20 year prison sentence for taking a bribe in any shape form or fashion.

Problem is...how do we fix this problem? Anyone have a answer for that one?

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	So, the Answer is NOT Simple, Is it??
Date:	7/23/2010 9:05:25 PM

What is a Voter, an interested citizen to do? Way too much buzz about what is right and what is wrong. What is a VOTER to Believe??
The original questions were: Why can't elected officials act like normal people and fix problems? The second question was How to you fix it if those elected officials don't fix it??
I am sorry to say, but I suspect that the average Voter has no clue, in a ballot booth, which lever to pull. I suspect that he/she pulls the lever of the name heard most often on the TELEVISION.
The answer to the first question is, yep, simple. Re-Election in 2 years. 24/7 campaigns.
The answer to the second question is more complex. How do voters boot out entrenched/embedded Senators/Congressmen/Lobbyists, along with their staffs?
Voting Booth in 2010? And again in 2012?? I think not. Who is not lying about their position on an issue??
I don't know, and neither does a voter.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/23/2010 9:32:45 PM

No doubt the schools are not the greatest but much of that is due to being in a mostly rural area. Its funny but it sounds like the local government where you lived was pretty good compared to other areas. I think you get the jist of my desire for less federal government and more local control. Provides you with greater options to escape (and hence punish) poorly performing government. There is just no way to escape the federal government outside of leaving the country. That in and of itself argues for smaller federal government.

I have no doubt there is a lot of dysfunctional local government. Just look at the mess of any large city run by a Democrat (ie, Detroit, Atlanta, DC, LA, San Fran, etc.) and you will see that they are not close to perfect. But the key is like me, pretty much anyone can choose to live outside of those cities in areas that are better run. That they don't is a testament to their decision making, but they still have that option.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Simple for the first part, less so for the second
Date:	7/23/2010 9:37:10 PM

I think the point about their lack of desire to solve problems in lieu of just doing what they think will get them reelected is a simple answer. What is a voter to do can also be answered very simply, get educated on what works and what doesn't and only support and vote for candidates that do what works. Why the average voter doesn't do that is a mystery. Laziness? Complacency? Apathy? Self centeredness? All of the above? Others?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Simple for the first part, less so for the second
Date:	7/23/2010 9:37:15 PM

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	So, the Answer is NOT Simple, Is it??
Date:	7/23/2010 10:12:44 PM

I heard a former Congressman speak that said one of the first realities is that a portion of every day must be spent raising funds for re-election. And then there are the competing agendas, the pressures, the whole game of give and take. I find myself feeling that every time I see a candidate campaigning, I don't really believe anything they say. I find myself looking at not just what they say they will do, but do they actually have a plan for how they will do it? Big changes cannot be made just on the basis of a big personality or an overabudence of confidence. There must be a detailed plan. Just spouting platitudes, or espousing the party line doesn't get it for me.

Name:	alahusker -	Reply
Subject:	Simple answer
Date:	7/24/2010 9:45:52 PM

As a former Action Officer on the Air Staff, I never had any engineers.. But did spin lot's of major policy decisions and as PEM for the B-52 FYDP spent lots of time talking to uninformed DoD and Congressional Staffers.. And sitting behind the CSAF during Crongressional Commite meetings.. But I never ever owned even one engineer.. guess I worked in the wrong office.. Hound rocks..

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	But yet ....
Date:	7/26/2010 10:00:32 AM

.... you VOTED for the messiah!!! He had to read nice plattitudes, not even enough experience to give them 'off the cuff'.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	But yet ....
Date:	7/26/2010 10:00:33 AM

.... you VOTED for the messiah!!! He had to read nice plattitudes, not even enough experience to give them 'off the cuff'.

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	Hey, Martini>>>
Date:	7/27/2010 8:16:07 PM

I agree with the answer to part #1, that politicos start their first day planning to be re-elected. Done.
Part #2 was How to Break the cycle and return reputable people as our representatives?? Right?
Your answer was for a Voter to educate himself on a candidate and policies that work or do not work, and vote accordingly. Right? And if he does not, it must be laziness, apathy, etc?? Thus, Obama.

Divorce yourself from this, because you have the education, ego, the time, and the desire to actually seek details? OK?

Gus, Girt, Suzy, Sammy come home after a 12 hour work day, sit down to sip a beer and relax. These are all registered voters. Do they go to a computer to research a candidate's voting history? Or do they click on the Evening News on TV? Do they make a note to follow up on Political Hot Item to check validity, and then do it? Election Day comes, and who do they vote for??

They vote for the candidate who spent the most $$$$ on TV ads. And, you voted for the other candidate.
Their uneducated, ignorant, uninformed, un-researched votes cancelled you out. Obama/Carter.

Still waiting for a valid idea on how to create an environment where a vote is once again a powerful tool of those who exercise the privilege and expect honesty in government.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hey, Martini>>>
Date:	7/28/2010 10:15:11 AM

Sigh.....Mack, I wish I could argue with you about your take on the problem but I can't. You are probably right about how people make decisions. I would say it is not necessarily just how much they spend but on what kind of ads. Late in the game attack ads, even if disingenuous, always seem to sway voters.

Maybe you are also right and rather than it being a mystery why voters don't educate themselves maybe it is just a sad fact. Possibly the only solution is when voters see their rights being attacked, their economy being devastated by incompetence and their freedom at risk will they rise up and do the right thing. That realization partly explains the Tea Party Movement in America as they have seen the march toward a statist Federal government being foist on us by Obama/Reid/Pelosi. Alexis de Tocqueville said it best, "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "

Quick Links
Lake Martin News
Lake Martin Photos
Lake Martin Videos