| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/10/2011 10:11:04 AM (updated 2/10/2011 10:21:16 AM)
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Well the news is out that the reason all the confusion and contradictory statements the administration made about what should happen in Egypt finally solidified into a single policy is King Abdullah told the Messiah not to humiliate Mubarak. So we went from a policy of "Mubarak should go now-We need an immediate orderly transition-We need a long-term transition-We don't want to tell them what to do-Mubarak is not a dictator and should stay-Mubarak is a dictator and should go" to the one prescribed by an Islamist dictator......the very one that Obama bowed to. And we thought the bow was just symbolic.
No wonder he also bowed to the Chinese dictator and then was lead around by the nose and was lectured by him. Talk about a clownish amateur, but just what we told those independents that took a hope on change. BTW, have you noticed how Hope and Change has left the lexicon? No wonder, most Americans now see that what he really meant was Hopeless and Change for the Worse.
BTW, I know I exaggerate with the title but the point is still a valid one about the conflicting statements coming from the administration......so feckless and over their heads.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
More Incompetence in the Administration
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Date:
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2/10/2011 2:20:18 PM
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Asked about the Muslim Brotherhood and James Clapper (Director of National Intelligence) said this is a mostly secular group not tied to Islam that disavows the tactics of al Queda. This is the same guy who didn't know about the London bombings when asked about it in a major media interview. We should change his title to Director of National Incompetence but people might confuse him with Obama and Biden.
These are the people responsible for our safety.......I await Hound's defense of this.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/10/2011 4:28:41 PM
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You really are taking this way over the top. I suspect that the King of Saudi is probably urging Mubarak to go behind the scenes, but doesn't want it to be seen as the impetus of the USG. Don't forget that the Saudi King has a vested interest in what happens in Egypt. He doesn't want the unrest to spread to the Kingdom.
You know, in this situation there is much more diplomacy going on behind the scenes than that which is reported in the press. I don't even listen to what the pundits are reporting because it most likely has no bearing on what is really going on and what is really being said.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Chirp, Chirp....NT
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Date:
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2/10/2011 4:28:54 PM
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/10/2011 5:24:53 PM
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I think I indicated I was a little over the top but does it bother you in the least that this administration has absolutely no idea what they are doing as evidenced by the ten different positions they have taken and that they are still clueless? If not you have lost all objectivity.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/10/2011 8:13:29 PM
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It doesn't bother me because the situation seems so fluid. For example, today everyone thought that Mubarak was going to step down, then he didn't. But his Ambassador to the US says he did in a way, by giving power to the Vice President, who is a Mubarak insider. Tomorrow there is likely to be a march on the Presidential Palace.
I see this Administration trying to walk a very fine, and very fluid line.
Just as we are analyzing everything that is being said there, they are analyzing everything that is said here. Sometimes ambiguity is a good place to be.
I know this doesn't fit your black/white preference, but that is the world of diplomacy. It's not as easy as it looks.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/10/2011 10:58:38 PM
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The sad part is that this president doesn't seem to understand when he needs to lay back and negotiate quietly and when he needs to be bold and brave and lead vociferously. He has repeatedly shown he is a babe in the woods, seemingly always making the wrong choices. Our foreign policy comes across as a leaf in the wind....
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/11/2011 8:35:21 AM
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While I agree that Obama tends to jump into the void when maybe he should just let things play out, I don't think US foreign policy is any more a leaf in the wind today than it has been in the past. What I do think it shows, and that the past has shown is how little the American government really understands the Middle East. And that gets us into trouble. We understand the Russians much better than we understand the Middle East.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
OK
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Date:
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2/11/2011 8:35:37 AM
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OK MM (aka: Einstein), please show us the way and the light, just what the he// would you do if in Obama's seat (talk about scary)????
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| Name: |
Tall Cotton
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/11/2011 12:56:17 PM
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Perhaps our better understanding was because we viewed the Russians as an enemy. That does not appear to be the current administration's thinking about the Middle East terrorists. It seems we want to try and make them like us rather than accept that they want us gone from the face of the earth.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Archie driving by once again
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Date:
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2/11/2011 2:43:38 PM
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You see Archie, I am not an expert in foreign policy but what I can tell you I would not do is the following: I would not have the President, Vice President, Press Secretary, Director of National Intelligence, Secretary of State and whoever else all saying conflicting things all at the same time!
You and Hound might think this is acceptable and a sign of competence but I and most intelligent people (not those determined to never admit they voted for an incompetent community agitator) understand that this is a sign of fecklessness and amateurishness on the part of the administration. You see Archie, if the situation is complex and fluid the last thing you want to do is send all sorts of conflicting messages at the same time, some of which may at the end of the day be harmful to American interests. You see Archie, I know this is tough for you and all the libtards to understand but I actually believe our foreign policy should be dictated on what is in the best interests of our country considering both short- and long-term ramifications. If you don't know what the heck is going on you at least have half a brain and you don't shoot from the lip like this administration did.
Thanks for driving by Archie........come again when you need another lesson in common sense and logic.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
OK Einstein
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Date:
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2/11/2011 5:29:24 PM
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In the case of Egypt just what scenario do you say is in the best interest of the USA. Do you think the events of this afternoon are good or bad. I'm happy to hear you say (admit) that you are not a foreign policy expert. Your posts would have us believe you are an expert on everything on God's green earth!
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
U.S. Foreign Policy Run by Saudi Dictator
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:03:39 PM
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I think there is some truth to us regarding them as the enemy. The government is loaded in intel and foreign policy with Russian specialists, who speak Russian, studied Russia, etc.
I have not been able to figure out why we don't seem to have a lot of Middle Eastern specialists. We have people that speak the languages, and supposedly have studied the politics and the culture, but it may be a factor that we haven't had to be interested in the Middle East that long really (other than oil, no one was ever too interested until after 9/11).
As anyone who has ever been there knows, it's a very strange place and it varies from country to country. But, you'd never mistake it for home. While my dealings were primarily with the military, I have always found the people rather warm and very interested in the US. Most of the time, for me, it was pretty comical dealing with some of the men (found the younger ones to be very open to dealing with women, the older ones seem embarassed). I had a Pakistani General tell me that I must have a "kind and loving" husband because he "let me" travel (his office boy almost dropped his tea tray on the floor to see a woman sitting in his bosses office). In Saudi, I had to have a letter from the Embassy that stated I had my husband's permission to travel before I could check into my hotel.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
As uncomfortable as it make you
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:11:54 PM
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it's not unusual for the US to keep it's diplomatic position fluid. I don't think "intelligent" people would find this hard to believe, unless of course, they were totally inexperienced in foreign policy. So, I guess it is a good think MM that you didn't desire a career in the foreign service. I know you love to discredit this Administration any way that you can, but you are totally off base here.
I'm sure I could find Republican Administration instances where this was the case as well, but I'm just not that motivated. I know during the Bush administration we were pretty vague about our position on the sale of Predator to other countries, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many others. It's just the nature of diplomacy. I can distinctly remember a few times when we kicked the butts of certain countries behind the scenes for things they did, but to the public we were nicey-nice. Unfortunately, I signed a non-disclosure agreement and cannot talk about those things.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
OK Archiestein
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:14:37 PM
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Archie, that's why I don't miss you because you start or end each post with an insult but I guess that's part of your DNA so I'll let it pass. What would be in the best interests of the U.S. would be a secular, democratically elected government that is not anti-American and is not dominated by Islamofascists....think Isreal.......except without all those pesky Jews that the Arabs want to exterminate.
As you may or may not know, nature abhors a vacumn so the question in Egypt is what fills the void. If it ends up being dominated by the Mulsim Brotherhood then we will have lots of problems with Egypt for years or decades to come, especially with their ability to disrupt movement through the Suez Canal and the likely end of decades of peace with Israel. I think at this point its anybody's guess and the events are most likely beyond our control and a lot seems to depend on what the military does.
As for your jab about not being a foreign policy expert, I can tell you at least I knew the Muslim Brotherhood is not a secular movement that eschews violence, which is more than we can say about the Messiah's head of intelligence. I also knew about the London terrorist arrests which is more than we can say about the same guy. I think both you and I would be considered experts when compared to him.
If you have not read it, I recommend you get The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. Very well researched book that delves extensively into the Muslim Brotherhood and how it was a precursor to al Queda. So while I may not be an expert I am well read in this area but since I am not getting paid I will stop here.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
As uncomfortable as it make you
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:22:15 PM
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Hound, you discredit yourself if you call all the conflicting statements coming from the administration as wishy washy, as if that is a strategy. Wishy washy is when the unified voice of the administration is inconclusive on some foreign policy subject. Feckless and incompetent is what we have gotten but I don't expect you to ever admit it because it would only confirm one of the many reasons we said you were wrong to vote for Obama. Keep your head in the sand and your alleged secrets because common sense rules the day here not some inside the beltway secrets.
And by the way, there have been a great many experts, including the very liberal Democrat Diane Feinstein, that have been very critical of the administration's ham handed, confused and ill conceived response to this. And she isn't exactly the bastion of the right wing conspiracy. In fact, I think she admitted she voted for Obama. But apparently she has the integrity to admit stupidity when she sees it regardless of her vote.....I can't even believe I am saying something positive about DiFi....oh what a day this is!
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Have it your way.
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:26:22 PM
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If you believe that the Administration has mis-handled Eqypt, then so be it. You're entitled to your opinion.
I don't have my head in the sand. I have first hand experience, which in my mind trumps what you think, here or anyplace else.
I am puzzled as to why you think you make the rules here about what is acceptable and what isn't. I'm afraid that you are getting a little too full of yourself. Beware those with sharp pins.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
OK Archiestein
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:28:34 PM
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The Muslim Brotherhood has been around longer than Al Quada, but it is NOT a precursor to them. Their goals and views, and tactics are much different.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Have it your way.
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:34:27 PM
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Hound, hold on a second. Show me where in any of my posts I stated what I thought the administration's response should be. Let me save you the effort....I never did because I don't know. What I specifically have been critical of is their multiple, concurrent, conflicting responses. Considering all that they said at one time it is likely that one of them was the right answer. At this point we won't know until this all plays out. But my specific criticism is not of one response or the other. I don't think anyone knows how this is going to play out and in the absence of a thorough understanding of events going on the administration should have at least developed a cohesive position. They did not and it made them look like fools.
I mean they send this envoy over there ostensibly to tell Mubarak he's gotta go and he comes out and says he needs to stay until September. That is just plain amateurish and it boggles my mind that you can't see it.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Read Wright's book....you are wrong about this
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Date:
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2/11/2011 6:35:54 PM
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It is very well researched and the connection is obvious. Read the book Hound, you will learn something you obviously don't know.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Have it your way.
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Date:
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2/11/2011 9:20:26 PM
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We don't own Mubarak. We can tell him we want him to go, think he needs to go, has to go, but if he doesn't choose to do so, what do we do? We try to bring pressure to bear by asking other countries to encourage him to go. The fact that we told Mubarak to go and he doesn't (at least not then) doesn't say to me that we have an uncoordinated position. I realize you've probably never had the opportunity to read a diplomatic note, but believe me, when they say "strongly worded" it can still seem very vague to the average reader. (I've read "strongly worded" dip notes that seemed to be apologizing for even bringing the subject up... Diplomacy is not for those of us who prefer a very direct approach)
As I said before, I don't put too much stock in what I hear from newscasters and pundits on issues like this. No matter what was said publicly, I feel sure that the Administration was very much on message with Mubarak. And in the end, that's what counts.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Have it your way.
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Date:
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2/11/2011 9:37:34 PM
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"Diplomacy is not for those of us who prefer a very direct approach"
I could never be a diplomat.....:>)
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Please tell me you are joking
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Date:
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2/11/2011 9:37:37 PM
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Hound, you are completely hopeless. I'm not talking about what pundits or newscasters are saying. I am talking about the words that came out of the mouths of the people in the administration as quoted in the government media, the alternative media, the internet and everywhere. Not the interpretation of someone but what they actually said in their very own words.
You are invincibly ignorant on this and it is absolutley mind boggling. How can you have a discussion with someone that just completely, absolutely ignores pure unadulterated facts?!?!?! I am completely exasperated at your insistance in the face of absolute truth and facts that prove you are completely 100% wrong.
I am not going to respond to you on this post anymore as I am convinced you are incapable of rational thought. I congratulate you. I have never been in a discussion with someone who insists on taking a position that is so at odds with reality and then will not budge. I worry about you.....
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
MM has it ever occured to you...
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Date:
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2/12/2011 9:22:48 AM
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that diplomacy in general and GOOD diplomacy in particular might mean sending mixed and even conflicting messages for diverse public consumption, while sending a very different message in private to certain others, namely the powers pulling the strings (Egypt's military?). Surely it within the realm of your superior brain to grasp that this is what might have just happened in Egypt over the last few days.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
WHAT I AM SAYING
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Date:
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2/12/2011 9:29:43 AM
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is that I don't care what is said PUBLICLY about the situation. I care far more about what was being done behind the scenes. In a fluid situation, there are going to be cross public statements -- the situation was likely changing hour to hour.
MM, I wish someone would stick a pin in your ego and deflate your ego. Don't waste a moment worrying about me, I get along just fine.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone who has ever been in Defense
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Date:
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2/12/2011 9:32:53 AM
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and dealt with the State Department... Talk about the crash of cultures... And the NSC is even worse.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
MM has it ever occured to you...
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Date:
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2/12/2011 10:35:54 AM
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Might have but I certainly haven't seen anything from this administration that even hints that to be the case. Among other things, inviting a public dressing down by a rich but corrupt raghead dictator....oops, monarch.....doesn't do much to change that perception.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Ha ha ha ha.....
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Date:
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2/12/2011 4:29:53 PM
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Thats a good one Archie....confusion and feigned incompetence as a strategy. Truly a funny one...... thanks for driving by with that laugher.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Whatever....you are truly hopeless
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Date:
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2/12/2011 4:31:26 PM
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