| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
When We Have Gov't Shutdowns and Such...
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Date:
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2/22/2011 1:22:11 PM
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Why do I hear the phrase... " All non-essential government employees" should not report to work. If they are non-essential, why are they there in the first place? Just a simple question from a very "simple" mind.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
"Non-Essential" vs. "Essential".
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Date:
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2/22/2011 1:40:04 PM
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This is a phraseology to determine who is to show up to work. A handful of people in each organization are designated "essential" to keep the government running at some minimal level to handle national emergencies. And medical personnel, security personnel, etc would be considered "essential"
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
"Non-Essential" vs. "Essential".
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Date:
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2/22/2011 3:41:05 PM
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I say get rid of all the non-essential ... that would be 90% and solve our budget issue.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 3:55:59 PM
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If the government shuts down and they send all the non-essential employees home here is what will happen. They will be unpaid until the budget or a continuing resolution is passed. Then they will be paid for the time they were off. They will be told this is what is going to happen when they leave. The government media will have an endless parade of government workers bemoaning their fiscal ruin knowing all along they will eventually be paid for the time off but making it seem like they are losing this income forever.
It happened before in the 90's while my wife was a federal employee. It was a sham then and it will be a sham now. The only difference is that with unemployment at 10% and underemployment at 20% these government employees will get no sympathy from the millions of Americans that have lost their private sector jobs or are working part time or in jobs that pay a lot less. There are too many reliable alternative media sources that are too
popular to let them get away with this fabrication of a government shut
down. It will be extra paid vacation, but they will have to wait a
little while to get paid. And most Americans will resent them complaining just as they resent the unions in Wisconsin, Ohio and elsewhere whining about having to pay a little more of their health insurance and retirement.
Dems will get the blame for this one and it will backfire.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 4:44:47 PM
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Funny, I remember the last time and in my organization we were not told that we would be paid for it. That came when Congress finally signed the budge and decided to back pay us.
I don't see why anyone would think that Federal Employees should be penalized because Congress can't agree on the Budget. It's not the Employees fault, and they have bills to pay like everyone else.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 5:09:27 PM
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But the are paid through tax payer dollars ... and if there are no dollars to pay and they are sent home and do not work (or should I say have to show up), then they should not get back pay.
No it is not their fault ... but they should not be "entitled" to pay when they are not required to work or the government runs out of tax payers money to pay them.
Should they not like it, then they can try to go in to the real world and work for a company that not only has to balance a budget, but make money to survive. When they over spend or do not service their customers, they go out of business ... unless you are big like GM and Obama uses more tax payer money to keep you alive, then gives 35% to the unions.
It still points to a great deal of the government as "non-essential". I think they should keep them out for months and they we can reall see what is essential and big those back as necessary. The rest ... sorry, we not longer need you and the tax payers don't want to pay for you any longer.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 5:29:54 PM
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Hound, my wife and all the others at EPA were told in a big meeting by their management that they would be paid for the time when the budget was passed and this was before they went out the door. I also had a friend's mother that worked in DC for the federal government and she was told the same thing. I distinctly remember us sitting there watching these federal employees in disbelief as they were whining about all this lost income. Of course it is possible that some were not told.
Having said that I agree that it is not the employees fault and it will likely be a hardship for some because they are living paycheck to paycheck. But if you are willing to go on TV and lie about losing this income knowing full well you will eventually be paid then you deserve some scorn. But my main point is that the general public is losing their jobs in droves and will not be sympathetic, particularly when they learn from the alternate media that they will be paid when they go back. This is particularly the case at a time when the federal government has hired 200,000 new employees while the private sector has shed jobs by the millions. Those of us that are paying for them will not be happy with the complaints. Just look at what the polls are saying in Wisconsin.
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Why don't you just stick a sock in it?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 8:04:10 PM
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All I know was that I was not told. We were called into a conference room, one by one and had to sign a paper that we had been told that we were not to report to work and that we would not be paid. I was working in Washington at the time.
Shutting down the government is not going to get other people jobs, it's not going to make a difference for people without jobs and it's not going to lower the deficit. It's just a political stunt to make a point. I really don't think the people who elected a majority in the House, did it so they could shut down the government.
And what is happening in Wisconsin is a travesty. It's not about money. I'm not a big fan of the teacher's unions, but what is going on in WI is just ham fisted bullying.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 9:03:58 PM
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Hound, the people that elected the majority in the House did so in an effort to restore fiscal sanity. To date, their representatives efforts can at best be labelled modest, with the House plan calling for a reduction in the $67.3 billion weekly spending to $65.1 billion per week through the end of FY11. The Democrats, their socialist policies and their accompanying runaway spending pushed this nation to the brink of financial ruin. If there is a shut down of the non essential functions of the Federal Govt., the Dems are totally responsible. As for Wisconsin, it is a travesty. SEIU, AFSCME, and OFA busing paid people in for protests, teachers staging illegal walkouts, doctors handing out notes to the striking teachers, 32% of eighth grade students reading at grade level with 66% less than proficient, yet being FORCED to contribute 12% of HC costs and 5% toward their pension is deemed an "assault on unions" by our dictator in training pants. A most frequent visitor to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave is Richard Trumka, averaging 3 visits weekly, and daily contact with Obama. Look at O's appointments to the NLRB, FCC, WH Advisors, various assistant Sec's., and even the debt reduction commission featuring Andy Stern. Look at the list of registered White House lobbyists and you will see that current or former union leaders comprise about 40% of the list, yet US union membership is less than 10%. I wish Governor Walker 100% success with his initiatives on right to work and limits on public employee collective bargaining. Along with that, I hope that at some point the Federal and States governments will move to a "pay for performance" model in every non essential position.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 9:59:44 PM
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Barneget - Very well said.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/22/2011 10:07:20 PM
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The problem in Wisconsin is that they are running out of money and unlike the federal government they can't print money. They have to cut costs and health care and pensions are a big target. As one who has always paid 50% of my heath care premium and all my retirement it is hard to feel sorry for them in the least. They strike me as a bunch of greedy, self centered people with no concern for anyone but themselves. The governor in Wisconsin is being fiscally responsible and the unions are being selfish and irresponsible.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Great video
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Date:
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2/22/2011 10:24:02 PM
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This guy is a leader ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdS61w8HXG4&feature=player_embedded
URL: Fireside Chat
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 7:48:33 AM
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The teachers have already agreed to the pay concessions, i.e. additional contributions. what they are trying to preserve is their collective bargaining for the future. How does that impact the immediate problem with the Wisconsin budget? It doesn't.
I'll be the first to agree that in some cases, most notably Detroit, that Unions have done far more damage than good with outrageous demands. But negotiation is a fundamental principle and right, and maybe the state just needs to negotiate better, rather than crushing the process.
Regarding "pay for perfomance" I can only speak to what was tried Defense during my career. It was implemented 3 times and all three times it had to be abandoned. There just isn't a good way to evaluate the "success" of the development and implementation of regulatory processes. And I can tell you first hand, it becomes a management nightmare.
The most effective piece of the all three attempts was the pay banding, which allowed some adjustment of pay according to performance within the band. The problem isn't identifying and paying the superstars; but trying to differentiate the success level of the good solid people who do a very good job and can grind out the routine work in a fair and equitable manner. After a certain level, money does not motivate people. They perform better by understanding their role in the process and feeling like they are contributing in a meaningful way, and recognition. I've had better success motivating people with small recognition awards than larg(er) end of the year bonuses. (Outside of the Senior Executive Service, there are no really large performance awards.) It's particularly challenging with a technical workforce (i.e. engineers).
There needs to be a different model. I've played around with a few ideas, but it's a complex problem. It's something I'm very interested in and have spent a great deal of time thinking about.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 11:59:44 AM
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First of all the Governor is allowing them to keep the right to collective bargain for their salaries. The other collective bargaining issue has everything to do with the budget as it is pensions and health care costs that are spiraling out of control. That the unions have preliminarily indicated a willingness (not have agreed to anything as yet) to accept these initial, minor cuts in cost for the state is like saying I am going to fix permanently the bleeding from my arm which was cut off using a band aid. The Governor knows this is just a first step to fiscal sanity and does not want to repeat the insanity and incivility in Wisconsin every time he wants to move them closer to where the rest of the country is vis-a-vis health insurance premiums and retirement accounts.
This has absolutely everything to do with the budget.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 5:14:10 PM
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I think he is going about it the wrong way. He's not going to be able to get rid of the teachers, so I think his interests (and the state's interest) would be better served agreeing to take the inital concessions and work on the rest over a period of time. Ramming change down the people's throat is never a good idea. I think he is going about it like a ham fisted lout.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 5:19:56 PM
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It is interesting to see how this is going compared to New Jersey. I don't think he is handling it any differently but the union response has been totally different. I actually think their response is ham handed, uncivil and is only further damaging their credibility with the public.
At one point when the NJ legislature threatened to shut down the government over the changes Christie said go ahead. I will go home, grab a beer and watch NBA games. Just tell me when you are done. Very direct, much more confrontational than the Wisconsin Governor has been and he got his way. The unions are the ones turning this into a Greece moment and they will suffer much more for it in the long run than he will.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 5:30:54 PM
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I think the difference is two-fold -- One it is NJ. And I think Christie has built up some credibility in NJ for telling it like it is. He has a great personality for NJ, because you know he probably would go home and watch the NBA. I'm a huge fan of Christie.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/23/2011 8:57:59 PM
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85% of americans support the Govenor. Even most of WI do as well, historically a dem state ... but they are waking up and it is just more greedy government employees that think they should get more than the private sector at the expense to the taxpayers.
I even saw the union and some of the protesters saying raise taxes so they do not lose their benefits. How greedy and selfish can they be.
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| Name: |
Jim Dandy
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/24/2011 11:48:48 AM
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"Ramming change down the people's throat is never a good idea."
Couldn't let that statement from an ardent Obama supporter pass without comment. We have found common ground.
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What part of non-essential is troubling you? If they are not needed after being out and the the tax payers are not crying to have them back ... why should they pay for them. Under our constitution and democracy, isn't the government "for the people" and "by the people".
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/24/2011 8:42:16 PM
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I like Christie as well. Seems to say what he means and means what he says. Unusual for a politician. Wonder if his increased national profile means he may consider throwing his hat into the ring for the GOP Presidential nomination? Would make an already interesting field more interesting. I think a lot depends on how vulnerable Obama really looks when they have to commit.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Christie
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Date:
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2/25/2011 11:00:34 AM
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said on Morning Joe that he is not going to run in 2012. I think he is like a breath of fresh air. He is a realist.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Christie
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Date:
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2/25/2011 12:21:02 PM
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Now was this a non-denial denial or a real denial he is running? It seems like he is doing a number of things to raise his national profile and is commenting on national issues. I still believe he will throw his hat into the ring if Obama is truly vulnerable.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/25/2011 1:28:21 PM
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you are very right. When change they support is rammed down other peoples throat, it is totally acceptable to them .... but when it is change they are against, they they scream and yell and say that is not the way to get things done.
It is so sad to see the hypocracy.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Christie
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Date:
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2/25/2011 1:31:18 PM
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I agree ... it is wait and see, even though he says he is not running and not ready. If there is a cry for him to run, that creates national momemtum and he would probably run.
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I have to say, I agree with you on Christie.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/25/2011 5:51:25 PM
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It's not a "them" vs. "us". It is human nature. In my opinion, what we are seeing in Wisconsin is not "victory" any more than Obamacare was a "victory". And that is why compromise and negotiation are so important. Successful change requires "buy in" and sometimes the phased approach is the best you can hope for. If you get a small piece of what you think is the solution, you take that and build upon it.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Christie
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Date:
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2/25/2011 5:57:31 PM
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Well, it's hard to say. He says he is committed to running NJ. I guess if he starts losing weight and getting in shape, we'll know he is going to run.
I think he would be a good candidate in 2012. He hasn't run on the national stage before and doesn't bring with him the baggage that some of the likely candidates do.
I wonder how his Jersey style would play out Nationally. I like to think it would be well received, because I think that people would find his honesty refreshing. You know,
I don't even know if he has any foreign policy creds, but I think he would be well received in internationally. I sense that he really says what he means.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/26/2011 8:59:45 AM
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The difference is you have states in crisis ... they have to have the cuts or the majority of tax payers pay more. They are not asking more from state workers than the private sector pay. In fact it is still less. And the private sector does not have union bargin rights over healthcare and pensions.
The outrage over Obamacare is the government was sizing control and taking rights and freedom from the people and forcing them to pay more on top of it. No one disagrees people should have access to healthcare if they want it and there should be ways to deal with people that do not choose to have healthcare and can afford it. But not the approach taken.
As for NJ, Ohio & WI ... there were negotiations and adjustments made ... but typically the liberal side is negotiate as long as they get their way, otherwise it is unacceptable. When it comes down to a state defaulting or cutting benefits equal to what others have, I am not sure what their is to negotiate? I guess we could have situations like Chicago and Detroit that are just defaulting rather than take responsibility for the obligations they have. Don't think that is the answer either.
Look at Indiana that has been a republican for most of its history and is a conservative state ... through all of this, they still have a surplus and very low taxes .... there are other examples. It does seem states that have a history of being liberal and run by democrats are in the most trouble. That should say a lot.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/26/2011 5:09:26 PM
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But the immediate crisis in Wisconsin would be solved with the teachers agreement on contributions to healthcare and salary. My understanding is that it would solve the immediate crisis. So you take that and build on it. What good purpose does it serve to have public workers amassing and occupying the capitol. Don't you think there are other, more elegant solutions?
I have not followed the Ohio issues.
Somehow NJ and Ohio apparently averted having a face off.
It seems to me that states have been mismanaged for years and now in a bad economy the bill is coming due. I have always suspected that there is a lot of corruption and mismanagement in state government. For example, B'ham is having a lay off a lot of teachers, but the city government officials spent horrendous amount of money traveling to some conference and staying in the best hotels.
And I'm not sure that it is Democrats or Republicans that are worse. I think they are about the same. It may be just that Republicans are finally have to deal with the problem because there are no other solutions anymore.
It's really sad.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/26/2011 6:51:28 PM
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I agree it is sad ... all i am saying is that they are being encouraged to protest ... all the way from the WH ... so I struggle with who is not willing to negotiate. If they were not acting so childish and the senators did not leave the state to have the debate, maybe there would be middle ground. But the answer was just no and the fight started.
I still say, if they don't agree, then they can go work where they can get the benefits they want ... they must believe those jobs exist, since they are creating a lot of noise how unfair it is what the govenor put on the table.
They will soon find a lot of pink slips in their mail boxes ... that is what is sad ... only because they will not accept what everyone else has to pay.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The real irony of it all
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Date:
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2/26/2011 8:25:26 PM
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It'll test the courage of their convictions when they get the pink slips.
I really don't know what kind of benefits they get now, so it is hard for me to say that they are better or worse off than other jobs. And I don't know how their pay and benefits stack up against others in other states.
Many years ago, my SIL was a teacher in Montgomery and I know she HATES the AEA. The amount of political power they have in Alabama does seem out of proportion.
I read in the paper the other day that the governor of Alabama plans to reduce the number of paid holidays for State workers in AL. They currently get 13. I'm in favor of them doing away with what I call the half-$ss holidays throughout the year for everyone.
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