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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/25/2011 12:39:34 PM
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Hound, read the following point made by a Mid East scholar. Is this consistent with what you were saying in another post? Seems like it is to me..... In the West, we tend to get excessively concerned with
elections, regarding the holding of elections as the purest expression
of democracy, as the climax of the process of democratization. Well, the
second may be true – the climax of the process. But the process can be a
long and difficult one. Consider, for example, that democracy was
fairly new in Germany in the inter-war period and Hitler came to power
in a free and fair election.
We, in the Western world particularly, tend to think of democracy in
our own terms – that’s natural and normal – to mean periodic elections
in our style. But I think it’s a great mistake to try and think of the
Middle East in those terms and that can only lead to disastrous results,
as you’ve already seen in various places. They are simply not ready for
free and fair elections….
In genuinely fair and free elections, [the Muslim parties] are very
likely to win and I think that would be a disaster. A much better course
would be a gradual development of democracy, not through general
elections, but rather through local self-governing institutions. For
that, there is a real tradition in the region.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/25/2011 5:46:19 PM
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More or less, yes it is. We may not like this "new" democracy because it likely won't look like our own, but it will be a step forward for their people. It seems to me, that our style of democracy is an evolutionary process, and requires infrastructure to be fully realized.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/25/2011 10:04:07 PM
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I generally agree with this view (made by a neo-con by the way). I actually don't think it is an infrastructure issue but is more an issue of national maturity. And by maturity I am referring to a recognition of the practical realities of electoral choices which comes from experience. Maybe "experience" is a better word than maturity. The understanding of what's been tried and doesn't work or doesn't result in the desired outcome. That takes time.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 8:41:30 AM
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I think we're thinking the same thing. I'm thinking about a set of "principles" that will guide their "democracy" and that comes with maturity. That's what I meant by infrastructure.
I think this is what the neo-cons were envisioning for Iraq. But, I think there is a better chance for success when change comes from within, rather than from without.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 8:56:20 AM
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Well we will see in Egypt and maybe other countries if your view about coming from within makes a difference. I am still skeptical but that's just my nature. When it comes to lasting Middle East peace I'd be an optimist but it just wouldn't work out. :-)
By the way, what do you think of Obama's relatve silence on Libya? I was surprised he did not ask for an orderly transition of power like he did with Egypt. Also think his and the UN's tepid condemnation of the killing was shameful.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 9:10:22 AM
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Feb and I were just talking about this last night. Feb's theory is that Obama is doing consultations with other countries before we dispatch a Brigade to take Kadafi out.
While I don't know if we will dispatch a military assist, I do think he is in consultations trying to unite some kind of world response. He has imposed sanctions (which I think needs to be done to legally, but actually do anything to stop the violence), and closed our Embassy. Is it enough? No.
I think Libya poses a much risker situation than Egypt did. Kadafi is desperate and crazy. I think Obama is missing an opportunity to step out on the international stage and provide visible leadership, but it's not happening. This is his "policy wonk" persona. The belief that writing a really strong position paper and talking to others is somehow just as effective as taking a public visible stand. It's a disappointment.
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 9:31:03 AM
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Military actions to prevent Libyan air strikes against civilians - We do not have a military presence in the Mediterranean! Is this not strange?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 10:54:05 AM
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Mabe so but my sense is that Egypt has bigger implications than Libya because of the Suez Canal. And as I understand it sanctions against Libya are mostly symbolic because they are reasonably self sufficient and its not like their main export, oil, is flowing anyway. I just find it strange that he was so quick to jump on the bandwagon with ousting Mubarak (ostensibly an ally, albeit a paid for one) but has been so reticent with Ghadafi (our enemy and the instigator of Lockerbie).
While there may be other reasonable explanations does it not distrubingly fit into the trend of antagonizing our friends and embracing our enemies that we see over and over with this administration? At least he only warmly shook hands with Ghadafi but didn't bow to him.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 4:29:15 PM
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You know, in the past few years we've "forgiven" Kadafi for all his sins. I have no idea how much aid we have given to Libya since then or the nature of such. I've always felt that sanctions are largely a diplomatic nod, because when we get to the point of sanctions, things are already bad.
The only remotely reasonable explanation I can think of, is that we have intel and are trying very hard not to antagonize them. Or maybe we've trying not to antagonize Kadafi, for fear he will use worse measure on the people. I understand that he has mustard gas at least, and possibly other chemical weapons. Not sure what role, Saudi may be playing behind the scenes, if they are at all. It probably would have to stay behind the scenes too, for fear of creating riots in the Kingdom.
Just saw a news blip that says "Obama says Kadafi must leave". ????
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/26/2011 8:22:53 PM
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You know what I never understood about these guys, Ghadafi, Saddam, etc. is they have hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. So why not take the money and run? What is it about being a dictator that is so appealing? Especially an unpopular one. I suppose it takes a megalomaniac to get there and thats what keeps them going....who knows.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Comment about Democracy in the Middle East
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Date:
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2/27/2011 7:15:30 AM
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It does seem incredible, doesn't it? I think it must be mega-ego. They must believe that they are beloved in their country.
Even today, I was just reading an article that Kadafi's son is saying that their regime can survive this. Delusional.
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