| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/4/2011 6:14:01 PM
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This week, the United States Senate passed S. 1867 also known as the National Defense Authorization Act including sections 1031 and 1032 which authorize the military to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without trial or charge. Despite national outcry over the bill which effectively suspends the Constitutional rights of those suspected of terrorist activities and would allow Americans to be incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, the Senate passed the bill by an overwhelming margin of 93-7. This means that Congress could easily override the President’s threatened veto.
But this act of Congress is even more dangerous than we first thought. Included in the bill is Amendment 1068 which was offered by Republican Senator Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire. This part of the bill undermines President Obama’s executive order that bans torture and overrides the list of permissible interrogation techniques in the US Army Field Manual. In other words, the US military could arrest ordinary American citizens without reading them their Miranda Rights, put them in a cell without the benefit of an attorney, a trial, or charges of any kind, and then torture them during interrogation. A secret list of torture techniques would be created without public knowledge.
Is anyone else disturbed by this? On the surface, who wouldn't agree that potential terrorists should be able to be interrogated? But, think about further about this - how this might be used against the citizens of this country.
I know a lot of you are worried about gun control laws. But this seems 10X worse to me. Where is our country headed?
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| Name: |
HARRY
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:01:58 PM
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If you're that worried about it imagine how the bad guys feel
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:28:16 PM
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First of all, this is a Republican sponsored bill. And Obama has said he will veto it. But Republicans claim they have enough votes to overcome the veto.
But, think beyond "terrorists". Think a few years down the road. Who will be the "bad" guys? People that disagree with the government? With the current road we're on, and the polarization of positions in this country, who will be the next "bad guys"?
Think about Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:34:11 PM
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Doesn't this fly in the face of citizens' right to not be subjected to unreasonable search and seizure? Would it survive a legal challenge?
I bristle at the thought that my rights as a US citizen might be so easily thrown into Sir John Crapper's famous invention.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Plagarism is a no no Hound...oh my....
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:52:54 PM
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I thought the language you put in this post sounded odd so I googled it. Here is the source: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/12/02/the-national-defense-authorization-act-is-even-scarier-than-we-thought/
I suggest you visit their website to see how much you can trust their analysis of anything as the site is filled with left wing nut hatred for the GOP, conservatives, God, guns, grandma and apple pie (OK, I will admit to exagerating that last part....just a bit). Now we know why Hound thinks what she thinks. She copies from left wing websites and tries to pass their ravings off as her own. Tsk, tsk.....
By the way Hound, I looked back and never once saw a post from you critical of the most blessed Messiah about his orders to assasinate American citizens but somehow this is important to you all of the sudden. How about a shred of intellectual honesty? And no more passing off left wing bullcrap as your own writing. Its really beneath you........
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Now you oppose bipartisanship?!? Whassup wit dat?
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:56:33 PM
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Lets see....enough votes to override a veto?!?!? Well by golly that must mean in the Senate which is controlled by DEMOCRATS!! OMG, this might actually be a bipartisan vote to override Oblamer. Isn't this exactly the kind of compromise and bipartisanship that you constantly claim to want?!?!? Hound, you are truly hopeless in your incoherence.....
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
No, I didn't write it.
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:56:33 PM
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I didn't claim I wrote it.
But, that is not the point. The point is the Bill itself. Think, MM, THINK before you run off at the mouth.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/4/2011 9:58:26 PM
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Hodja, I suggest some independent research on this issue. Hound is lifting left-wing propoganda and trying to pass it off as her own. I don't know much about this legislation except that it has been mischaracterized by the left wing nuts......
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You pretended to write it Hound
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Date:
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12/4/2011 10:00:12 PM
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I do think. I think you lifted something off a left wing nut website with no critical examination as to whether it is accurate and tried to pass it off as your own. That is more than a bit pathetic and you should be ashamed.
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| Name: |
Lugan
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/5/2011 3:54:12 AM
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I have heard a whole lot of griping about lost rights and freedoms over the past number of years. I haven't lost any rights or freedoms. Where's the beef? (Of course, I don't do anything illegal, so the govt can listen to my phone calls all it wants....as boring as it might be.) If the govt catches a citizen involved in terrorism--go ahead and disappear them for I care.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/5/2011 8:22:27 AM
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I'm not at all concerned about what they do with regard to suspected terrorists.
I'm more concerned about how this Bill might be used in other situations.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I didn't Pretend anything
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Date:
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12/5/2011 8:35:18 AM
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What is it about an alternative view that brings out the bully in you? What are you afraid of?
Wake up and smell the coffee.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/5/2011 8:39:06 AM
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I've read the portion of the bill that describes its applicability and it does not apply to U.S. citizens. Almost the entire brouhaha is a result of serial repetition of an ACLU interpretation and scare campaign (must be running low on funds at the end of the year so they need to gin up a crisis) that has gone viral and is repeated without critical examination. Fortunately, unlike Hound most the websites actually refer to the ACLU as the originator before going off on their predictable rants.
So we have a law that specifically excludes U.S. citizens from detention (although I suppose they could volunteer to be interrogated and would not have to be detained....."Beat me, beat me". said the masochist.... "no", said the sadist). We have an amendment that allows enhanced interrogation of terrorists and we have the ACLU crying foul. There were multiple amendments proposed by left wing nuts in the Senate that would have gutted the portion of the bill addressing counter terrorism and they were defeated in a bipartisan vote every time. It sounds like a bipartisan group of congressmen and women agree with you.....lets disappear a few terrorists. If it were me, I would do everything I could to accommodate their desire for martyrdom....in large numbers (paraphrased from Stormin Norman).
Houd just saw something in a left wing nut website and rather than actually determining if it were true she tried to pass it off as her own writing. And they wonder why the government media isn't all over this one....its a bunch of hooey.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Huh?!?!?
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Date:
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12/5/2011 9:14:19 AM
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Wow Hound. That was.......stunning....... I am speechless.
My pointing out how you tried to pass off the rantings as a left wing nut website that was repeating the rantings of another left wing nut website is somehow bullying? Geez, I never knew that all those years in school when my teachers told us never to do that that they were actually bullying me. It's amazing that I have been able to overcome sixteen years of abuse.
As for what am I afraid of, I don't even know where to begin but I can tell you what I am not afraid of......the National Defense Reauthorization Bill for Fiscal Year 2012 because: 1) I am too smart to believe anything that comes out of the ACLU; and 2) the detention provisions do not apply to U.S. citizens....and I am one...and I have no intention of volunteering to be interrogated.
And finally, I did wake up and smell the coffee. It was Starbucks Verona decaf with a little sugar and too much cream....I am really a girly man when it comes to coffee.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
My dearest friend Martini
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Date:
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12/5/2011 12:25:38 PM
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"It was Starbucks Verona decaf with a little sugar and too much cream....I am really a girly man when it comes to coffee." Martini, that is the ultimate LIBTARD concoction!!!!!!!! I see it all the time at ACLU meetings and at a few ACORN ones. It sounds more like coffee ice cream than a man's coffee. You need to ask Starbucks to substitute whipped cream for the regular cream so you can look cool arriving at the office for a staff meeting.
I understand when Rep Barr lost the primary and was hired by the ACLU, he used to drink a similar coffee with the exception he drank regular. He was further to the right than you can even dream about being. Be careful what you drink cause it could have lasting political implications. You might be slowly evolving to a position of Obama 2012.
For me, black house blend refill while I get the clerk to give me two punches on the reward card for a free coffee next trip.
You are safe drinking that girly one as the military will overlook you when they come knocking under 1068.
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| Name: |
Lugan
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| Subject: |
National Defense Authorization Bill
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Date:
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12/5/2011 12:46:01 PM
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Yeah, and I am worried someone might throw a jar of mustard at me as I work on my lawn.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
My dearest friend Martini
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Date:
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12/5/2011 1:28:06 PM
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Alas I am no longer able to imbibe caffeine which has been a very unpleasant change in my morning SOP. Actually I have never been much of a coffee drinker. If I got a decent cup in the morning I am usually done for the day unless I am forced to watch pMSNBC.
As for your comment about Bob Barr, I only refer you to what he said and did pre and post-ACLU participation to see how funky that organization is.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My dearest friend Martini
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Date:
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12/5/2011 1:38:24 PM
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I personally prefer Caribou Morning blend, black. I'm sure H_HOB will find something to say about that.
I spent some time this morning reading the Bill. While the Bill does appear to exempt American citizens, there is a provision in there for waivers. As I have stated, I don't care if they want to hold terrorism suspects all day long, except where is the definition of terrorists in the Bill?
To me, these kind of provisions are the proverbial "slippery slope". It gets inserted this year, and next year the language could be modified to enlarge the scope. I consider this a "framework" provision. And if a lawyer squints really hard, how might this be interpreted. It's not just the ACLU that is concerned. I came across several other groups, none of whom appear to be Left Wing, upset about this as well.
It bears watching. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
My dearest friend Martini
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Date:
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12/5/2011 1:52:18 PM
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5 shots of espresso, no wrap, no lid. Then, on to the hyper caffeinated Shock coffee I offer in my stores.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Caribou coffee is great
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Date:
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12/5/2011 1:56:55 PM
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I actually prefer Caribou coffee as well but I can't get it at my local grocery store and I just never get around to dropping by their store. Convenience trumps preference in this case.
There are a number of libertarian leaning sites that are up in arms but a good many of them also reference the ACLU interpretation. But when you look at the body of work on all this on the internet a vast majority of them refer to the ACLU who I do not like and do not trust. The exemption of U.S. citizens seems pretty clear but Obama has already killed a U.S. citizen without any kind of due process which in my view should be more scary to these left wing nuts than what might happen under this bill that was passed by a bipartisan majority in both the House and Senate. Why they are so focused on this one amendment and don't seem at all worried about using drones to target U.S. citizens would be beyond me except we know it is all politics. Just like Obama's threats to veto are only intended as red meat to his crumbling base.
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| Name: |
Lugan
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| Subject: |
ACLU
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Date:
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12/5/2011 3:13:17 PM
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The souless application of the law is what the ACLU does. Worse, it seeks out cases that support plaintiffs which society shuns due to criminal or immoral behavior.
For this reason, I do not like or condone the efforts of the ACLU in practically all cases. Once in a great while they do something correct, but that is a rare moment.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My dearest friend Martini
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Date:
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12/5/2011 7:22:50 PM
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I started drinking Caribou when I couldn't get Starbucks for my Keurig. I actually like it a bit better. I drink a couple of cups of black coffee in the morning, but if I have coffee in the afternoon, it's always a non-fat latte.
I don't have a problem with the ACLU in principle, although frequently I don't agree with the positions they take. The best thing about them is that their very existence keeps some of the most egregious human rights violations from ever taking place.
One thing about reviewing the Defense Authorization Bill -- I see lots of reporting requirements. I'm sure to a lot of people, this may seem like a good thing. But, the truth is a lot of time and manpower gets spent on creating reporting, that could be better spent on activities that directly support the mission. Most of these reports go to the Hill and no one ever reads them. But the staffers raise cain if they don't get them.
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