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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Hey MM
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Date:
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2/20/2012 5:37:27 PM (updated 2/20/2012 5:40:49 PM)
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“They see the kids of divorced parents and how they have behavior problems, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. and have rightly concluded that the damage done to society by people that think like you is not worth the so-called freedom to live any way they want.”
MM, not quite what the apears in the The Christian Science Monitor. "High divorce rates and teen pregnancy are worse in conservative states than liberal states" Talk about the mettle calling the kettle black.
High divorce rates and teen pregnancy are worse in conservative states than liberal states
Ask most people about the differences between families who live in “red” (conservative) states and “blue” (liberal) states, and you’ll hear a common refrain: Massachusetts and California are hotbeds of divorce and teen pregnancy, while Nebraska and Texas are havens of virtue and stability.
The reality is quite different. And the evidence should force all of us – conservative and liberal alike – to think carefully about the policies we set to help American families thrive in the 21st century.
According to a new federal study, women with a college education are much more likely to be married than are women who have never graduated from high school. And men and women who married after the age of 25 have lower divorce rates than couples who were married at younger ages.
We could have predicted these results. The US family system, which once differed little by class or region, has become a marker of race, culture, and religion. A new “blue” family paradigm has handsomely rewarded those who invest in women’s as well as men’s education and defer childbearing until the couple is better established. These families, concentrated in urban areas and the coasts, have seen their divorce rates fall back to the level of the 1960s, incomes rise, and nonmarital births remain rare. With later marriage has also come greater stability and less divorce.
Societal support for high school sweethearts who want to tie the knot at graduation or for shotgun weddings – where the bride is accidentally pregnant – no longer exists.
Difficulties in the “red” world, meanwhile, have grown worse. Traditionalists continue to advocate abstinence until marriage and bans on abortion. They’ve said an emphatic “no” to the practices that have made the new “blue” system workable.
Yet, paradoxically, as sociologist Brad Wilcox reports, evangelical Protestant teens have sex at slightly earlier ages on average than their nonevangelical peers (respectively, 16.38 years old versus 16.52 years old), evangelical Protestant couples are also slightly more likely to divorce than nonevangelical couples, and evangelical mothers are actually more likely to work full time outside the home than their nonevangelical peers.
While the devout who make traditional marriages work have happy stable lives, economic circumstances have made it harder to find matches that support gendered family roles and to get marginal couples through family tensions.
Paul Amato concludes that among the marriages least likely to last are those in which women who would prefer homemaking roles end up working outside of the home much more than they expected because of the husband’s inability to support the family.
These factors reflect class and cultural differences, but all of our research suggests that the great recession is likely to make things worse. The hallmark of what we have termed the blue family paradigm is training for autonomy. With a more extended transition to adulthood, better educated youth also need greater flexibility – to navigate their developing sexuality; to switch jobs, cities, and specialties; and to renegotiate family and career responsibilities. In hard times, dual careers provide a cushion, and flexibility about gender and work roles makes it easier to trade off child care and employment.
Hard times, however, also increase calls for a return to more fixed and traditional values. The fact that traditional families are flailing often persuades them that a return to traditional values is that much more critical. In today’s world, however, almost all of the traditional nostrums have proved counterproductive.
Missing from this debate is recognition of the bankruptcy of traditionalist family values as policy for the postindustrial era. We are entirely sympathetic with those inclined to lock up their daughters from puberty until marriage, but we do recognize that the societies abroad most insistent on policing women’s virtue are locked into cycles of poverty.
In the United States, states that emphasize abstinence-only education, limit public subsidies of contraception, restrict access to abortion – and, yes, oppose gay marriage – have higher teen birth and divorce rates.
Yet the failure of the family values movement simply produces another round of moral panic and calls for more draconian restrictions. The most destructive have been those that marginalize the next generation. The latest studies show that as the economy has gone south, teen and nonmarital births and abortions have all increased. This indicates that contraception has become less available and pregnant women more desperate about their futures. Employment figures also demonstrate that male employment has fallen even further than female employment, making youthful weddings that much riskier.
The solution? As we outline in great detail in our book “Red Families v. Blue Families,” there are three critical steps we can take: (1) promote access to contraception – within marriage as well as outside it; (2) develop a greater ability to combine not only work and family, but family and education; and (3) make sure the next generation stays in school, learns the skills to be employed, and cultivates values that can adapt to the future.
Naomi Cahn is the John Theodore Fey Research Professor of Law at George Washington University Law School, and a senior fellow at the Donaldson Adoption Institute. June Carbone is the Edward A. Smith/Missouri Chair of Law, the Constitution and Society at the University of Missouri at Kansas City. They are coauthors of “Red Families v. Blue Families: Legal Polarization and the Creation of Culture.”
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/20/2012 6:06:55 PM
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Do you ever have an original thought or only cut and paste random unsupported information you dig up.
MM, myself and others ask you direct questions and you never respond ... instead you just post other peoples oroiginal thoughts.
I knew you were spinless ... but you prove over and over your lack of credibility.
You are a sad person.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/20/2012 6:57:56 PM
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Why don't you address the message?
OBAMA 2012
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/20/2012 9:11:29 PM (updated 2/20/2012 9:13:26 PM)
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Read the article and when you get to the bottom you will see the authors. I said it was The Christian Science Monitor. I never suggested that I wrote it. Once again, address the message.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
They won't address it
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Date:
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2/20/2012 11:10:06 PM (updated 2/20/2012 11:10:56 PM)
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because the contents are true and they are unable to come up with an explanation. I have seen similar articles from time to time since W was elected. On of the best was a comparison of the colleges, universities and scientific research budgets in the blue and red states. It's an eye-opener.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
BTW
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Date:
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2/20/2012 11:18:00 PM
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Another interesting comparison is how much more federal largess per capita the "anti government" red states gobble up than those "socialist" blue states. Take a look at what Alabama, Mississippi and Texas rake in compared to say...Oregon,Vermont and New York..
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
BTW
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Date:
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2/21/2012 5:57:40 AM (updated 2/21/2012 5:59:02 AM)
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Another Way to look at it. From a source you guys respect.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/states-debt-combined-may-exceed-4-trillion_n_1029162.html#s430050&title=1_Connecticut
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/21/2012 6:26:32 AM
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When you address messages and questions specifically directed at you, then you may deserve a response to something you post. Until then you and archie are just humor that has wondered from the jokes board.
Jellyfish ... you have zero credibility. ZERO!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hey WW
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Date:
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2/21/2012 6:56:41 AM
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Sometime the truth is hard to receive, harder to believe and hardest of all to admit.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/21/2012 7:16:04 AM
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What is the message?
Have Democrats evolved into Republicans?
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Hey Jellyfish
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Date:
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2/21/2012 7:42:24 AM
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"Have Democrats evolved into Republicans?" --- I think this would require divine intervention; or at least a lobotomy?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hey MM
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Date:
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2/21/2012 9:15:13 AM
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Hey GF, too much to digest. Busy laying off employees that voted for Oblamer. I will say you did a very nice job of finding an article that supports your worldview. It must have taken you a while to find.
Instead of responding in detail I will simply provide you with a number of very good articles and books that come to an entirely different conclusion than this author.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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2/21/2012 9:34:03 AM
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GF, all the sources you cited all come from the same book. But here's some homework for you so you can get a little education. Look at the rate of marriage in red states versus blue states. You see GF, you actually have to get married to get divorced. I know this is a shocker to you and Archie but it is actually true.
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I agree ... think how hard it is for you to admit what a disaster Obama has been for this country, his failed promises, excuses, etc. I would take ANYONE but him. Anything you and jellyfish posts trying to discredit the GOP, pales in comparison to the failed policies of Oblamer. Gas prices are just another example in the long list of failures and hurting the lower and middle class that he claims he is fighting for. Not to mention the debt dongrade, never passing a budget, doubling the national debt in 3 years ... 15% real unemployment, on and on.
The chit you guys post are nats and small distraction ... the do not even matter in the big picture compared to the failure of this administration and the distruction they have caused.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hey Achie
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Date:
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2/21/2012 1:06:23 PM
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Rather than you and jellyfish posting this meaningless BS ... why aren't you telling us what a great job Oblamer is doing and why he deserves 4 more years. You guys are never fighting for your candidate ... if you are so in love with his accomplishments ... share them with us.
Archie ... by YOUR OWN metrics, he has failed. You put them out there ... now you are still supporting the failed record. I guess you are just another dyed in the wool liberal that is blinded by the truth and will support failure like in Greece. We are not far from them.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
OK WW
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Date:
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2/21/2012 8:51:06 PM (updated 2/21/2012 8:53:29 PM)
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Here are some more truths:
The loss of jobs bottomed out in the first couple of months of Obama's first term. The tide turned and the monthly loss got smaller and smaller month by month. In early 2010 we moved into regular if uneven gains. The unemployment rate peaked at 10.1% and is now down to 8.3%. More than 90% ot the jobs lost after Jan 20 2009 have been regained. By bebruary 1, 2012 over half a million people are collecting paychecks that were out of a job when they sat down to Thanksgiving dinner in Nov 2011. Consumer confidence is rising, profits are at all time highs, the market is up, interest rates are at historic lows. The Republicans are walking off a cliff by refusuing to even consider giving their reasonable center / right even a crumb. Osama is dead! GM is alive!
Now, are we better off with Obama than we would have been with McCain? I have no idea. Are we worse off with Obama than we would have been with McCain? YOU HAVE NO IDEA! I know you think you do but you don't. I can't remember whether it was Mark Twain or Will Rogers who said "Its not what a fellow knows for certain that gets him in trouble, it's what he knows for certain that's not right that causes him problems." WW...you have problems!
Obama is likely to be re-elected. The truth is hard to receive, harder to believe, harder still accept. Now put your head back in the sand.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hey MM...You are not making sense
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Date:
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2/21/2012 9:08:59 PM
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Do you know the meaning of "the rate of...."? If a million couples are married in Alabama and half a million of them get divorced the Alabama divorce rate is 50%. If only 10 couples are married in Vermont and 5 get divorced the Vermont divorce rate is also 50%. If the blue states have a lower "divorce rate" than the red states it means a lower percentage of the married couples are getting divorced in the blue states without regard to whether a larger are lower percentage of the people of those states are tying the knot. You are sounding more like WW in your last post than the "Mensa" qualified MM we all know and love.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hey Archie....have you read the book?
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2/21/2012 9:53:16 PM
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If not, then maybe you should before you start representing what is written. I have downloaded it on my ipad so I can read it. You see, I have more intellectual curiosity in my little finger than you do in your whole body. I'll comment on it in detail when I read it and not rely on the government media's take on the book. I actually can think for myself instead of getting the entire body of my knowledge from pmsnBS, the NY Times, etc.
It is interesting that they have chosen to write a book rather than subject their work to peer reviewed journals. But then, it would expose their analysis to critical examination by social scientists, statisticians, etc. as opposed to the fawning slobbering of the government media and libtards like you. Standby Archie for some intellectual analysis versus your mind numbed slobbering. Maybe you will learn something.......but I doubt it.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
HUH???
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Date:
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2/21/2012 10:42:35 PM (updated 2/21/2012 10:44:58 PM)
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What in he// are you blabbering about? Certainly not my last post...I hope! To use one of your old favorites..."did you even read it?"
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Unemployment is NOT at 8.3% ... read the change that Obama ORDERED in order to make the number look better. But it does not change the fact that those people are still out of work ... real unemployment is still estimated to be at over 15%.
You also fail to mention the debt downgrade ... that Obama doubled the debt in 3 years ... that he has NEVER passed a budget even with 2 years of the dems controlling both houses of congress. You fail to mention gas prices have doubled under obama and his failed energy policy. You fail to mention the wasted money and loans to green energy that did not create any jobs or a new trend in cars. You fail to mention turning down a pipeline that would create jobs and bring down nergy costs. You failed to mention fast and furious or suing states that are trying to control their boders and illegal immigration.
While things may have finally started to tick up .... it is despite Obama, not because of Obama .... he was too busy with anything and everything but the economy after he took office ... like forcing a national healthcare program down our throats that the american people do not want, the country can not afford and will probably found to be illeagal by the supreme court.
The list goes on ... this by any measure has been a complete failure of an administration and 4 more years would destroy the country. The stimulus did not do anything other than waste 800 billion in hard earned tax payer dollars. His attack on class warefare makes good press but does nothing to solve the problem with his spending and deficits. Even the budget office said it would slow the economy and create more unemployment.
He did not accept even 1 on the recommendations to solve the debt crisis by a bipartisian commission.
Obama is too busy laughing that his job program was not as shovel ready as he thought.
I realize he is your liberal dream ... but we are well on our way to Greece and will get there if he gets 4 more years. Then ultimately we will face the same fate ... only much, much worse. Obama has grown entitlements as a % of total revenues from just over 50% (too high anyway) to 78% based on his proposed budget that will not even pass the democrat controlled senate.
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Archie ... go back to the joke section where you belong and make some sense.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
OK WW...answer a few questions?
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2/22/2012 7:00:56 PM
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1/ Can you site a REAL* source for your claim Obama "ordered" changes to the way unemployment is determined?
2/ Do you claim that Obama is "cooking the books" on unemployment. If so site a REAL* source.
3/ Sounds as if you like the Simpson-Bowles Commission findings, so do I. Do you agree with it's recommendation
that $1 in additional taxes be raised for each $3 in spending cuts?
4/ What do you plan to do on Jan. 21, 2013 when President Obama is sworn in for his 2d term? I will be glad to
contribute to your "moving to Costa-Rica" fund!
*REAL sources do not include Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Andrew Breitbart or any of the GOP candidates.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
and BTW
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2/22/2012 7:18:11 PM
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I have no idea how many total jobs were saved or created by the stimulus, but I guarantee It was at least three because I know 2 structural engineers and one architect who would have been laid off in 2009 had their firms not received work on stimulus projects. After you read this, go spit nails, call me a poor excuse for a human being then kindly stick your head back into the sand.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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Did you answer my question?
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2/23/2012 2:33:24 PM
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Have you actually read the book or are you just parroting what some left wing nut website said it says? It will take me a while to get through it as I am currently engrossed in Eric Metaxis's biography of Dietrich Bonhoffer. Hard to put down but then again I doubt you would ever read a book about a Christian minister standing up to the Nationalist Socialists since he was opposed the euthanizing handicapped people and you libtards think that is a really good idea, not to mention unborn, healthy babies.
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