Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Converting Heros into Goats
Date:	6/30/2012 10:20:29 PM

      i’ve been trying to understand  the reasons behind the intensity of the rhetoric and polarization of the political process…    The conservative reaction to Chief Justice of the Supreme Court seems to be a good example of what’s going wrong, but doesn’t give us any ideas about what to do about it.      After a career of blessings by the Right-wing, Justice Roberts’ ruling ran against what part of the political establishment wanted… and the action has left him to be redrawn him as a far less admirable man.    This quick conversion process has become an accepted part of the conservative thinking.     A few days ago, he was an unquestioned hero. 

     The really polarizing component of conservative thinking is the attention to identifying & naming of enemies.  This view is that compromise over differing ideas is not just bad, it’s dangerous.  Failure to oppose their philosophy with complete conviction becomes the same as consorting with the enemy.   it isn’t allowed, it’s even seen as a question of character.   Once an enemy is created, they can neither be trusted nor completely rehabilitated.     With that in mind, these politicians make every effort to cast themselves as ‘complete patriots’, ‘true conservatives’, rather than Statesmen & representative of ALL of the people in their districts.

    So, when a traditionally conservative Supreme Court Justice fails to agree with the position of the group that claimed him, questions quickly surface about his true beliefs and adherence to their political agenda.  As a Supreme Court Justice, he’s not SUPPOSED to be party to the political process!   But this public reaction just underscores that there will be no room for compromising, no tolerance for discussions of consensus building in the Tea Party ranks.    

      As a result, i expect we’ll remain stuck as long as we allow the over-blown political verbiage on both sides to keep us up in arms…..racing around to identify & pillory enemies, or defending against ridiculous & misleading sound-bites. 

   Seems now a tradition in the conservative movement to over-idealize their political figures and later demonize them as failures, or worse.   George Bush is a pretty good example of how fickle this is.   The right wing won’t even acknowledge for a second that he was once the hero of their movement.   if Mitt Romney loses he’s likely to see his history written that way, too.    Now it’s Chief Justice Roberts turn to be degraded as traitor to “the cause”.   Conservatives who supported him should be proud that they brought an impartial jurist to the Court, and hope that politics doesn’t ever overshadow the purpose of the SCOTUS. 

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	Just a Family Man
Date:	7/1/2012 10:12:15 AM

A true test of government – would you… could you… run your household that way? 

1.   Would you commit financial suicide in the presence of your family?

2.   After they leave home, would you have your children take over your mortgage, car loans, and credit card debt?

3.   Would you dictate charity to your children? 

4.   Do you promote industry or indigence among your children? 

5.   Do you just give money to your children… or require them to earn it (chores, paper route, lawn mowing, car washing, babysitting, etc.)? 

6.   Would you demand that they take a significant portion of their allowance or earnings and give it to the couch potato kids next door?

7.   Do you have enough confidence in your children that you could loan them money… and expect they’d repay it?

8.   Do you make your children dependent upon you… or train them to be independent when the time comes?

9.   Who do you think your children think GOD is?  Do they even care?

10.     Would you imbue your children with these policies?

So… VOTE the way you would act.  Demand that government live up to your standards… after all it is supposed to be a representative form of government.

Copperfine - We conservatives hold our government… our politicians to a higher standard than do liberals.  We will discard conservatives for the very same incompetence and immorality for which liberals lionize their “leaders.”  We don’t allow them to believe they are smarter than us.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	AND you are CRAZY!!
Date:	7/1/2012 11:04:43 AM

i think it’s interesting that you would say that Justice Roberts “really doesn’t like” the new healthcare plan, that he was “very vocal” about his opposition and then changed his vote “for the wrong reason”.   You’re trying to reframe his actions by saying ‘he was one of us but failed to follow the instructions of his party’.     What he did was interpret the law, and craft a decision that said it was not the role of the SCOTUS to overturn the wishes of Congress if their actions were constitutionally sound.    Your thinking is that he is a party functionary and ultimately failed in his mission assignment.     Any Justice on the Court would probably resent being characterized as a mouthpiece of one party or the other.

      it’s a tax.  No, it’s a penalty.  All of that discussion is useless semantic hair-splitting in keeping with this crazy battle of politics & rhetoric.    Maybe it’s a contribution to pay for a much needed public good.  Who cares what you call it?

     Sadly, Roberts’ ruling did leave the door open for further Tea Party disruption and i wonder just how that will play out.  By making it possible for States to opt out of additional Medicaid (not Medicare) funds, your party likely will move to threaten local politicians who are going to be considering accepting the federal funding.   On one hand, state leaders will know that their local health services are underfunded already.... leaving many of their constituents  vulnerable, their hospitals & medical service programs already crippled by indigent care,  and that the public prefers provisions like prohibiting pre-existing condition exclusions, extending family insurance to young adults,  etc.    They will also know that there is no GOP alternative to play up.     These politicians will have to decide between following the threats from their party or accepting 100% funding from the feds.     Opposing it will be cutting off their noses in spite of their face, will highlight the extremes to which the right wing will go, and make for a very public display of insensitivity to the poor.  

     We will have to wait & see how many of them will intentionally refuse medical care for people in their districts, but who knows?   They almost drove the entire national economy off the cliff in the Debt Ceiling debate, it’s entirely possible that withholding medical care for the poorest of the poor won’t be as distasteful to them as being characterized as consorting with the enemy.

    i suspect that some Conservative politicians are a bit relieved that this legislation was upheld, but know it's political suicide to voice that.   Mitt Romney crafted the same legislation in Mass, but has to publically retract his opinion in deference to the threats of the Tea Party.    Thoughtful players know that we had to do something to fix the broken healthcare system and join the rest of the developed world.   They would also know that it is not really a good idea to allow for-profit insurance corporations to write our national healthcare policies.

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	Just the Man You Are
Date:	7/1/2012 1:08:01 PM

Archy - You should vote in line with the personal experience, behavior, and disposition you have just espoused. You have survived… you have LIVED a conservative life.  You have a right to expect your government to at least meet your standards… the ones you have lived by… such being as you have described as yours.

Abortion and homosexuality – annoying problems.  But, they DO NOT influence my vote. I, as you have written, do not make those decisions for others. Judgment of those are in God’s providence – we are cautioned to leave judgment up to him.  Abortion and homosexuality are not the cause of America’s moral decay… they are symptoms.  They represent the prevalence of Hedonism over self restraint.

Archy, vote the man you are… not the man someone prescribes for you.

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	Just the Man You Are
Date:	7/1/2012 3:10:49 PM

Archy –

Non sequitur:  (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises.

Reading your essay on McCain (a patriot - not an apologist)… extending his politics to Romney (quite a stretch)… and then ignoring Romney's history (Obama’s notwithstanding)… you then step away from what your history is telling you… and say that you will vote for Obama (whose promises and premises are but vague and destructive omens). 

Are you confused?

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Just the Man You Are
Date:	7/1/2012 3:31:43 PM

Major, you are overlooking Architect’s point that the decisions he has made in his life could sometimes be considered conservative, sometimes liberal... he says that he led a life full of complex choices that defy easy classification into one political camp or the other.   Chances are, you’re the same way.     Yet we all seem to be obsessed with the need to CHOOSE SiDES rather than respect individual differences of opinion.   

Abortion isn’t evidence of moral decay, it’s a medical procedure that some people unfortunately need.  Homosexuality isn’t a choice either, no more than your personal sexual preferences or the color of your skin.

i have a different view of government programs.  i think more of us benefit directly from them than we like to admit because it is fashionable to distance and pretend to be self-sufficient.    Few of us are, or ever have been free of public welfare benefits in one form or another.   All government programs directed toward protecting, developing or improving social conditions are welfare programs.   The Center for Disease Control is a public welfare program, so is the FDiC, the Food and Drug Administration, etc.  This lake was built as a public welfare program.  We went to public schools, sometimes on to college using government assisted loans.   Our businesses are aided when federal programs bring in community development dollars, or pave the roads to our door.

Those programs that specify a distinct population to be targeted with funds are referred to as Entitlement Programs and this is considered to be a derisive term for hand-outs to freeloaders.  in the view of conservatives, these include food stamps, support to dependent children, disability programs... but entitlements also include programs such as Medicare, Tricare, the VA and Military retirement.   The political choices made to give tax dollars to one group or another have more to do with maintaining a stable social order than morals.   People who have received or are currently receiving benefits assume this to be their Right.  it's not.  it's a government welfare program and none can claim a higher moral standing than the others.

And without those government programs, our lives & the conditions of society would be much worse.   it's easy to forget that programs once considered too over-reaching and expensive are now just part of the landscape.    For instance, nobody is going to argue for abolition of Social Security Disability, Medicare, or the VA....  All expenses to the taxpayers who acknowledge them to be useful and necessary.   it will be the same with healthcare reform.  in a few years, you won't find many conservatives able to recall opposing it. 

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	Compelling at First
Date:	7/1/2012 4:31:23 PM

Copperline, on the surface your argument appears fair and compelling.  In fact, it is not. 

I’ll again quote Milton Friedman, “One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than results.”

1.   I’ll cede that the Center for Disease Control is a NECESSARY public welfare program.

2.   I’d say the FDIC is essential to confidence in the banking system.

3.   The Food and Drug Administration, like the EPA, has overstepped its charter and become oppressive.  Department of Energy has accomplished NOTHING!

4.   “This lake was built as a public welfare program.”  No it’s a primarily a monitored hydroelectric and flood control project which has recreational benefits.   (Some folks lose sight of that.)

5.   We went to public schools… something which the Department of Education has nearly destroyed (at great expense to the taxpayer.)

6.   Some (times) of us (went) on to college using government assisted loans… which the latest generations want to be forgiven.  Most of OUR… no, maybe my… generation worked their way through college.  I know I wouldn’t have asked my dad to pay for it. 

7.   Our businesses are aided when federal programs bring in community development dollars, or pave the roads to our door… with federal mismanagement and strings attached.

8.   (Social Security) Medicare, TriCare, the VA, and Military retirement are not necessarily entitlements.  Most recipients of those moneys are folks who paid into or EARNED remuneration.   The problem is a) the federal government has already spend the money paid in and b) there are those who have no sweat equity at all… drawing from those programs.  Social Security is a Ponzi scheme.

9.   ObamaCare is NOT HEALTH CARE REFORM.  It will not improve healthcare… will not make it available to everyone… and will not make it more affordable except for those who will not… do not… pay anything for it.  The only way it will work is for the working class to pay more and for healthcare resources to be rationed.  ObamaCare does not address the real issues with quality and availability. Federal involvement will make healthcare worse.  There is a plethora of history to qualify that prediction.

At what point will Copperline draw the line and say, “Enough!”  Or, will you just kick it on down the road.

The larger this train wreck becomes… the more speed it puts on… the harder it will be to stop. Until… well, until we learn the lesson of the Greeks… and Italy… and Spain… and California… and Illinois.

If we concede to your argument… we will have given away the greatest nation on earth.  Social safety nets be damned… the entitled are going down anyway… with us.