Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/22/2016 11:23:25 AM

                In reading my last post, I was interested in how the subject diverted into a brief discussion of government inefficiency and waste…a theme that gets repeated plenty of times in this forum and in the media.  And my point here is not to deny that this can be true, but to add a few talking points that I think are worth considering but don’t get mentioned much.

                Ex-government employees, several of whom are on this forum, seem to always portray that the part of government they observed in was full of wasted efforts, misspent money, inefficient processes, lazy & entitled workers doing next to nothing.   To balance out their opinions, they usually add that not all government employees are slacking off, but only as an afterthought to weakly balance out negative reflections on their time of service.   

We all respect their opinions and observations, but that’s the problem.  You see, the overwhelming narrative in this country is a negative view of the manner that government services are designed and delivered.    And, there is plenty to criticize.   But it is also true that most of us will not work for the government, and that most of the readers here will have their sole contact with “government workers” at the county courthouse, some highway department employees and the guys down at the ABC store.   The complexities of government functions are not easy to understand or appreciate because the scope of the mission can be so huge that it defies easy understanding by the average joe.  

Government fills in the blanks that civil society can't provide.   It has to build infrastructure, maintain orderly processes between various parts of society, enforce rules of balance, fairness, safety, etc.    In attempting such a global mission, we have developed government (and I include military) departments carrying out functions that seem positively alien to us because what they do is unlike anything we are familiar with in the retail sales & local sector where we live out our lives.   In that way, both a food stamp program and a governmental department purposed with reviewing vast military contracts and trade agreements aren’t easily understood and can appear to us as frivolous examples of waste.   It has become too easy to believe that the government’s primary function is to employ people to do expensive work of dubious value, & chock full of people whose only mission is to waste their time & our money.

I wish my friends who are ex-government workers would do more to change that narrative, not because we should have Pollyanna’s view of the world, but because it’s more complicated than that.

Chances are if you have been a government worker, you can appreciate what I mean.   Chances are the functions of your part of government service could not be provided in the ‘private sector’ and yet were still important… perhaps even critically important in ways that aren’t clear to the rest of us.   Chances are, you did not work in your job feeling like you & your compatriots were committing fraud.   Chances are, explaining the details of your department’s activities just doesn’t make sense unless your listener also understands the larger details of the mission… which most of us do not.

I have not been a government employee, but at some times over my career my salary was funded in part by tax dollars funneled to the social service/healthcare agencies I worked for.   Those ‘indirect’ government jobs were important in a small way, but I am used to having trouble explaining why that was true because there was nothing grand & dramatic about what we did.   Most of it was on such a small and personal scale that it could be seen as useless by anyone who was unfamiliar with the big picture.   Most of the government & ex-government employees I know have worked in departments with mission statements far bigger & more complex than anything I have done… and far bigger and more complex than the average civilian will ever have experience with.   So when an ex-government worker or military officer supports the impression that the system is broken, rife with fraud & waste, and full of empty-headed people, everyone reacts by feeling that we are being robbed and gets angry.   Your first-hand testimony has complete credibility with us.

IMO, inefficiency & waste exists in every organization.   And as you scale up, inefficiencies only increase.   As complexity of the mission (of government) increases, as the scope of the largest & wealthiest country ever known grows…. We have plenty of examples of how things could be done better.  And we should try to improve on our system, it’s always going to be a work in progress.  But I think it is a fallacy to dismiss government functions as useless, instead we need to think specifically about what we need government to do that cannot, or should not, be done by private corporations….or left undone altogether.    We need to better appreciate that in a complex & modern society, there are things that only a government can do to keep the train from running off the rails.

It would be great if ex- or current government / military workers would also tell us about what they did in ways that make us understand the unique contributions their department was making, and how those important functions could not have been provided otherwise.  Give the rest of us a better understanding… more opportunity to be proud that we funded your work and to be happy that your government service contributed to the common good as well as to your family & career.  

Believe me, we need to know. 

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/22/2016 4:35:55 PM

An IRS that decimates the Wetumpka tea party and no one goes to jail?

We could only hope for waste and inefficiency.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/22/2016 4:38:22 PM

I hope I have not portrayed the government as wasteful and inefficient.  As everyone here knows, I worked for DoD, and I can really only talk about that and the other Departments that I had connections with.  I will say that I believe that DoD has a different perspective from the other Departments - a philosphy of "can do", because in most of DoD, efforts go directly to supporting the military, which I think most people recognize as pretty important and in some cases means life or death.  It's a pretty positive atmosphere. "No" or " I can't" is not an acceptable answer. 

My early years were spent in the "field" for the Army in foreign military sales.  What are the benefits of these  - well, it brings militaries closer together - by having the same equipment.  The foreign country militaries get to spend time in the U.S. training with our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and while they are here, they get a good dose of democracy, American style.  Additionally, it helps our defense industry by keeping production lines open, sometimes filling in important gaps in production lines so industry can keep their workers, and by combing foreign orders with U.S. orders, the U.S. benefits by economy of scale buys.  I did this work for the Army at 2 levels and I also worked for the Defense Security Assistance and Cooperation Agency in the Office of the Secretary of Defense.  Besides those I've mentioned, the reason to sell defense articles on a govenment to government basis, instead of a direct commercial sale has to do with capabilities or data we might not want another country to have.  All FMS personnel are paid either from a fee that foreigners pay to the U.S. government or directly funded by a "program management line" on the government-to-government contract (usually known as an FMS case) 

I mentioned above about releasability, direct commerical sales, which was another part of my career, these I did in the Pentagon at both the Army Staff and OSD.  Let me say one thing about Headquarters, Staff positions and OSD.  These jobs are considered policy making and oversight which is defined as "inherently goverment", i.e., that it is the duty of the government to set policy and oversee government programs and ensure U.S. military superiority is preserved.  Some of the things I worked on had to do with working with industry on direct commercial sales to ensure that classified miltary data and superiority is not transferred, except by government oversight.  So contractors submit a license request to the government for military technologies and it is reviewed by the DoD and we get to approve it or put restrictions on it.  Or sometimes the governernment doesn't all it at all.  Again, these are considered inherenty governmental duties (making policy).  Most of the time, this involves a lot of meetings between government and industry, trying to find a reasonable way for the contractor to move forward while perserving the military edge.  Because contractors are profit driven and not always that concerned about the long range effects on the military.  (it might be interesting to note that most defense companies employ retired military people to deal with DoD.)  It should also be pointed out offices are staffed with career civilians and military, the reason being that civilians provide the continuity and the military keeps military interests in the forefront. 

At one point, I was working exclusively on night vision.  The military did not want night vision sold, because it was an important capability to "own the night".  But over a period of time, industry developed a market for night vision, particularly thermal imagers, to firefighters cars and manufacturing.  A policy had to be developed on what could be exported and what could not, keeping in mind that the military did not want any of these exported and industry saw a legitmate market.  Inherently governmental decisions. 

Other duties that were provided by our agency:  Defense input on Freedom of Information requests, Defense input on Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. (CIFIUS) that is, whether a foreign company can buy a U.S. company; Participation in International Committees on international agreements to stop foreign and blackmarket sales of critial defense items (and this included nuclear and chemical); and participation in development and negotiation in internationsal agreements.  International Agreements are a State Department responsiblity (as is FMS and direct commerical sales), but the Defense Department plays a critical role.  But as far as intenational agreements, you won't find many people in Defense that are happy with the outcome but State has the Final say.  And another thing we were very involved in was the co-development of the Joint Strike Fighter with 7 foreign countries.  Very rare for cutting edge techology to be codeveloped with foreign countries and their contractors. While the program office was in charge of the program itself, our agency was very involved with release of classified information to foreign companies. 

Obviously, these are a very small part of what the Dod is involved with.  I will tell you that most civilians are intent on supporting the military and preserving our military superiority.  It can become very gray when Congress gets involved (as they regularly do on some of these thing, especially when it means jobs in their districts).  And for the most part, offices are staffed with both military and cilvilians (and increasingly contractor support for analysis) - with the civilians providing the continuity and the Miltary providing the military perspective. 

I know that no one is proposing that the Department of Defense be done away with.  There is more, much more I could say, but I will leave it here.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/22/2016 8:07:24 PM

Visited VA recently ( admin not hospital) ; despite appointment waited 1 1/4 hours ; on way back to meet with Director, saw 3 people evidently asleep at desk, 2 playing computer games ; and they work for us ??!!##%

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/22/2016 9:13:29 PM

Two questions:  were they on their lunch or break?

2.  Did you mention your concerns to the Director you were seeing?  (I'll bet not).

They do not work for you.  They work for the VA, which is funded by taxpayers funds. 

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/23/2016 8:49:59 AM (updated 2/23/2016 9:25:28 AM)

They do not work for you.  They work for the VA, which is funded by taxpayers funds.

LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!

In 1919, this type of reasoning did not affect the vote.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/23/2016 9:12:52 AM

Thanks for the reply and i hope i didn't offend.   Frankly, my reaction to your description of your job(s) was to be a bit overwhelmed and i think you've underscored my point.    There is no place in the world were you could have gotten such varied & diverse job experience as you did in the government  because there is nothing like it in the non-government work world.   For us confirmed civilians, what you just described can be a bit hard to relate to.

Honestly, a lot of my concern comes from worrying that the unceasing calls to reduce taxes & "eliminate big government" could undermine the necessary social safety nets in this country, and that same political sentiment creates a campaign to characterize all things government as bad, corrupt, overpriced and suspect.   When our national narrative demonizes all government spending (Progressives have focused on defense spending, Conservatives on foreign aid policy & domestic programs), it becomes easier to get those cuts through Legislatures & Congress.   

The other two replies to this thread described opinions that the iRS is being used as a flagrant political weapon and that the VA is staffed by people who are asleep or busy playing video games.   Unfortunately, those sentiments are pretty prevalent and discouraging.   How will we convince the next generation that working in government service is an honorable, admirable thing to do if we think the entire institution is so pitiful?

Thanks for the time you put in.  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Some Things Never Change
Date:	2/23/2016 9:57:28 AM

When in my basic Communications Officer school at Keesler AFB, MS in 1968 one of our better instructors was a civilian who told us about the "Civil Service Rocket", by saying "it won't work because you can't fire it".  While i have stated and Know for a fact there are many, many dedicated, hard working professionals in the government civilian workforce, unfortunately the Civil Service Rocket is indeed an accurate description for many others.

Like Hound, i believe the DoD civilian workforce is blessed with a much greater percentage of the dedicated ones.  i also agree with her that a reason is the DoD mission is in large part responsible.  Plainly stated, if the DoD fails, people die.  My contract work has occasionally  been with other Federal agencies, and that exposure serves only to reinforce those opinions.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Some Things Never Change
Date:	2/23/2016 12:22:05 PM

As an outside observer, I would basically agree that DoD probably has a higher % of dedicated workers than other agencies.   A govt shut down would probably affect productivity there.  But, but, but.....I believe there is much entitlement, self righteous (I am better than that other worker) attitude.  I believe there is overlap, over staffing, and yes some sitting around trying to figure out how to spend all the budget because we surely want Congress to think we need it all.

Perhaps it is because more money goes there, but the overspending and Unbelievable spending is highlighter more in DoD than in other agencies.  The toilets that must be made of gold, so much for a bolt and nut, and some service station overseas that is in the millions if not billions.  I say turn the DoD budget over to Greta Van Sustren and I guarantee we save some money.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	2/23/2016 3:00:08 PM

The next time you go into a government office, whether it is the VA or or the county officese, walk in and start giving orders and see if they work for you.  You tell them they work for you and I am sure your paperwork or whatever will find it's way to the very bottom of the stack.  One thing about bureaucrats is that they can be incredibly anal with asshats.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	2/23/2016 3:11:23 PM

Well, from my experience (and it may be different now) people went to work for the government because they wanted to serve their government, be a part of something larger than themselves, and to make a difference.  We heard President Kennedy's call to "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".  I'm sure there were those that wanted job security, but really, is that so different than most people? 

I don't know about the people that Flyfisher saw at the VA, but I think he missed a good chance to discuss his concerns with their Director.  He could have reminded him that as a government employee their Director is supposed to be a good steward of the taxpayers money and that as a taxpayer, he resented the waste of his tax dollars.  Give the man a chance to explain himself.  But he didn't; and we know why he didn't - because he was likely in there to get something for himself and he knew that bringing this up to the Director might have negative consequences for him.  So instead of taking the high road, he took the low road and posted here.  None of us know if this even really happened.  He had the opportunity to do something about it, and he didn't.  And that is enough for me.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/23/2016 3:35:06 PM

I don't know what year your instructor told you about the "civil service rocket", but let me remind you that before the government started contacting all of the developmental work to industy, the government employed some pretty smart people to develop and make early equipment.  You may remember that Von Braun was a governement employee as were a lot of the German scientists that were hired by the U.S. government after WWII  to develop rockets and missiles.  I am just barely old enough to remember when the govenment had labs and actually developed stuff. 

When I hear of stories like yours, it makes me a bit angry; because talk like that only reinforces this idea that civil servants are a lesser breed of cat.  In the course of my career, I found a lot of military who came to work in offices with a superior attitude, only to realize in a short period of time that the vast majority of civlians worked just as hard as they did, and left that assignment with a different perspective.  When I was Director of a Technical Office at the Defense Technology Security Administration (my next to last job), I had 11 people with PhDs (all but 3 were retired military) in some kind of Engineering and the rest had no less than a Masters.  Do you know that Air Force Officers that worked in that office, used to beg to come back as civilians?  And I rehired most of them, because they were great people and very smart people. 

The civilians provide the continuity and the military provide the military perspective.  Would you care to work in an organization where everything had to be reinvented every time people were reassigned?  If I wanted to be snide, I would say that the first thing that most military want to do when they arrive at a new office is to rearrange the furniture, so they can say right off the bat that they had impact. We could say that all military just worry about their OPRs, and most civilians don't give a damn about their annual rating.  But I don't want to be snide, because that would disrespectful to the majority of those that I have worked with that I found insightful and smart.

One thing that puzzles me Hodja.  If these people are as bad as you say, why do you work for them? 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/23/2016 4:24:07 PM

Unwad your pantyhose.  Maybe you and I had completely different experiences.  And your obvious bias against active duty military has been under wraps for some time now but surely did pop out in full glory this time.

Get GoneFishing to do some of his classic post data mining and see the multiple times in the past I have spoken highly of the dedicated public servants I have had the pleasure to work with and for.  

You make it sound like every civilian who ever worked for the Government should be placed on a pedestal and worshipped.  Some should, but there are a lot who just drew a paycheck.  In my present job I support a DoD agency that is forced to work directly with the VA.  The stories I hear about the attitudes and penchant for nonperformance make me cringe.  Accept it, for it is real.

As to military, in my experience there are chair movers and mountain movers.  I can't speak for the other services, but in the AF ratings are a joke.  There is reluctance to be honest in those ratings, so promotions assume all are rated one rung under God, so the promotion board looks at jobs and certain key phrases in the ratings to separate the wheat and chaff.  

In summary, your experience isn't the only one, and don't try to paint the entire Department as being what you observed.  I don't argue with your observations.  Don't argue with mine.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	2/23/2016 4:30:37 PM (updated 2/23/2016 5:28:04 PM)

I have no idea who flyfisher is, or if he speaks truth or false.  And he may have over stated what he saw, but it happens.  There I guess, at probate offices, probably at medicaid/medicare.  There are some great employees no doubt, but the stereotype has been well earned.  And no, we are not going go demand to see the Director each time.  Probably not going to blow a whistle because that is not welcome in most places.  And the civil servants (like an employee at Chick fe Lay) should be ready to assist customers whether they are nice or not.

I do not like superiority attitudes.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Lakngulf
Date:	2/23/2016 4:38:14 PM

Okay, I will take you on about the budget.  The last 2 years of my career, I was the Deputy Director of our agency, so I got to deal with the budget and the other day to day stuff that keeps an organizatin running.  Yes, people do rush around spending money at the end of the fiscal year, becasue if you do not use the money, you will be decremented that amount the next year and next year, you may need it.  I think I have mentioned before that when those cost of living increases are made, agencies do not get more money to pay for them.  They have to reorganize their money - i.e. move money between budget lines to pay for that.  But you don't get to just do that - you have to ask permission from the Comptroller.  People build in extra money to their budgets for contingencies - like when the assistant secretary for Middle east policy decides to make a trip to several countries and you are directed to provide an engineer for the trip.  This wasn't in the budget, so you take it out of our agency funds.  That's why people try to spend all of their dollars at the end of the year - and by the way, it only pertains to money expiring at the end of the fiscal year.  Not one agency will giver back money that they have been allocated because they may need the same level of funding the next year.  It's really good business - and typically the money in our agency would be appropriated for upgrades to computers, office furniture or supplies, something that is needed but may have been lined out of your budget submission. 

Now about those toilet seats.  You know that the Air Force did not spend $600 on toilet seats... they made a buy of parts - I can't remember how much it was - everything from the mundane (toilet seats) to electronics.  So some fool took the total of the amount spent and simply divided it by the number of items bought and that had the AF spending $600 on toilet seats.  Let me tell you why there are so many cost overruns and high prices - because the government is an unreliable customer.  The government takes hits to their funding, and then the production schedule has to be extended which costs money and increases the cost.  Computer technology changes.  In the course of one radar program I worked on, the spec called for 32 bit, which became 64bit (cause you could no longer get 32 bit, to whatever came next.  It cost money to make the changes, but those changes couldn't be ignored.  That was a long time ago, and you know

Lets consider for a monment the Joint Strike Fighter, F-35.  You know the horror stories about the cost and the problems.  That is one of the most advanced aircraft ever built.  It snythesizes so much sensor data and provides the pilot useable data.  No one has ever done this.   the speed with which technology changes, so in the course of a program, you will have those kinds of changes. The User (i.e. the Military) changes or adds on additional capabiities, which cost additional money - which can also change the schedule - more money.  What is not usually discussed is that in order to afford to buy it, the U.S. had to share the development with 7 foreign countries, and that means that classified data has to be provided to their companies - this is something that is not normally done.  With a foreign country - yes; but not their industry.  So we have to figure out who is doing what, and who will need what classified data to do their part.  This is one smal piece, yet I spent almost a year working with industry to figure it out  - transfer safeguards, node security, all this takes time and it all costs money.  So now there is an airplane that costs a lot of money and involves some of the most advanced synthesis of data ever.  And then the budget gets cuts and suddenly we are reducing the number of aircraft that will be bought and requires us extending the production line again -  big cost increases - industry is losing their economy of scale in buying components and parts.  That's what drives a lot of cost overruns  and increases costs.  JSF is an extreme example, but it happens to military programs across the board. 

Then there is Congress.  Did you know that every time you brief a staffer or a member of Congress on your very nice program, one slide that is always required is a breakdown of all the companies involved and what state they are in... and sometimes it even includes the number of jobs in each state.  I worked with a Army program called SADDARM.  The program was a disaster  and the Army zeroed out it's budget 3 times... only to have Congress insert funding specifically  for it 3 times.  We called it the program that would not die. 

Then  there were engines for one aircraft (I'm sorry, it's been a while I can't remember exactly which one - might have been Apache helicopters or it might have been JSF).  The decision was made to go with the Rolls Royce engine over Ge's engine.  Ge was outraged and lobbied the HIll and the next thing there was a line item for Ge to develop a 2nd engine, although there was no need.  The real reason that F-35 will never be cancelled?  Because there are too many companies and too many jobs in too many states for Congress to allow it to be killed.  Remember the SGT YORK?  That poor program - it didn't work, they could not figure out the problem and the user kept adding capabilities that it must have.  The military wanted to kill it.  Congress kept funding it on a special budget line.  It wasn't until member of Congress were invited to see it operate that it got cancelled. The system ignored the target and went for the fan in the latrine.  The latrine was destroyed and the buffet lunch for Congress was by flying debris.  Yes, this is true.  The poin is that DoD sometimes loses out to lobbyists and the Hill and programs that should be cancelled are not. 

Now do bad judgements get made? Yes.  I worked on a radar program where a very bad decision was made with regard to it's logistic support.  The idea was that someone did a fault calculation and those parts that were most likely to fail would be stocked near the equipment and those that failed less often would only be kept in the rear maintenance shops.  This was "innovative" thinking and was supposed to save the government money because you would need less of the expensive electronics parts that were stocked in the maintenance shops.  except the calculations were wrong, and the parts weren't where they were needed, and not ordereed in sufficient quantities.  So then there was a "get well plan" that  had to be developed, and then monitored and when that get well plan didn't fix the problem, another had to be created. It went on like that for several years.  Costs money - the contractor charged the government for additional parts, extended production, etc.  Yes, the contractor had made the calculations, but the government approved them. 

This is just my limited view of what drives cost and cost overruns and production overruns.  Nobody wants it to happen and for the most part it is no one's fault.  It's all driven by money decisions. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/23/2016 5:07:13 PM

I don't think anything in my commentary in any way supports your notion that I have a bias against active duty military.  But I do sense that you have a case with career civil servants.   I find it interesting that you continue to work with the government and take their money, for something that you have little regard for.  That's my observation  - don't argue with my observation.  I don't want to get personal but since you seem to want to, I will.

Do you know that when I worked in the Pentagon, when I felt discouraged, I would go down to the Hall of Heros and just stand their for a moment to be reminded of the sacrifices that have been made?  A good friend of mine who is a retired AF Colonel and now serves in the VA legislature would not agree with your view that I am against the military.  His name is Richard Anderson and he respresents Prince William County. He was the military assistant to my boss.  I don't think his predessor - Stuart Labovitz would agree with you either.  He's now technical director for an Army program office.   I don't think any of the AF officers I worked with and then rehired as civilians would tell you I am against the military.  So, in my mind, this is something you have come up with  and I deeply resent it.  I'm just sorry that your AF instructors poisoned your mind against civilians. 

And yes, I dislike the active duty military so much, I fought so my military coworker could get an "in assignment" medal, as I was awarded a Defense Medal.  It was unthinkable to me that I would get an award and she would not for doing the same work.

And yes there are chair pushers and Mountain movers. In the AF, most of the Mountain Movers are pilots, aren't they?  The "chair pushers"  are those in the Aquistion track.   And let not overlook the "real rating" system in the AF Officers selection process.  Something called the "Definite Promote" which is done in secret.  But I'm not down on the  AF.  They have excellent Admin NCOs and some really fine people.   And before you accuse me of being against the Navy, go talk to Navy Chief, retired, Andre Peterson, who was my senior Admin.  I disliked and disrespected him so much, I made him go and register for college and work on his degree, while giving him time to study for the Chief's exam. 

And I don't wear pantyhose.   

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	2/23/2016 5:16:45 PM

Nor do I.  But if you are going to gripe, then you better have the solution in hand.  And I'm just suggesting that he had the opportunity to bring it to someone's attention.  You have to have courage to change things.  Particularly when you make the statement that "they work for us". 

As far as the VA and Social Security, I have dealt with them and experienced frustration.  But I also know that most of them are clerical personnel that don't get paid a lot, and have a workload that is overwhelming.   Things will change when someone in the WH or Congress decides to put their money where their mouth is.  It's not fair to the vets for our Congress and the WH to pay lipservice to veterans and then not make good.  Rolling a few heads at the very top is not fixing the problem. 

And with regard to SS, in all likelihood they will go away.  I don't know who is going to adminster that program when they get done with that.  There will be no one to talk to. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	My point
Date:	2/23/2016 7:08:52 PM

You know, I'm not saying that government people should be put on a pedestal or that they are better than anyone else.  But in a 32 year career, I have worked in a number of government offices and with a lot of civilians and military people, and I believe for the most part, people were trying to do a good job.  Yes, there have been jerks, there have been slackers, there have been people that were just a bad fit.  I've also known a lot of people in industry, and I know that they have the same.  People who did things illegally on purpose, people who knifed others in the back, people who didn't act when they should have. 

I feel like y'all are judging a broad spectrum civil servants on a few people that you have dealt with - we always remember the ones who weren't doing the right thing or who weren't helpfu and not so much the ones who really helped.  The people who cared.  I had a secretary once who sounded like she was dead when she answered the phone.  People asked me what her problem was.  So I had a talk with her and asked her what she expected from the electric company if she had a problem. We all want someone who is committed, helpful and concerned.  We want to talk with someone that is going to do their best to fix our problem. 

Years ago, when DH and I were still living in NJ, we had to go to the VA in Newark, NJ.  We waited, we got the run around, and were treated poorly by a clerk.  I was disgusted.  But I got curious and looked up what kind of jobs were being recruited in the VA.  What I found out - low paying.  I thought about if I would be willing to do what they do and deal with all the different kinds of people they deal with for that salary.  And I said, no I wouldn't.   Same thing at Social Security.  I had a really good experience with a young man at the window in SS when I was in Virginia.  He was helpful and resolved my problems quickly.  A couple of years ago, I went over to the SS office in Alex City.  First, I was not of the impression he knew what he was doing, and second, he was not able to help me at all.  But I don't judge SS on one person.  I have a friend who was a lawyer with them working SSDI in Tennessee  She had a huge workload and was always frustrated when cases would come back and come back until they were finally approved because some lawyer got involved.   

My experience is with DoD.  I had professional relationships with people in State and Commerce, NSA, CIA; and to a lesser extent with staffers on the National Security Council.  I could give you good and bad examples in all of those places.  For the most part, people care, they want to do a good job, they want to make a difference.  Just like people in the private sector want their company to succeed - to get contracts and have satisfied customers.  They care too.  It's not so different. 

But, don't expect not to get a little testy when you start bad mouthing something I did for 32 years.  I had more than my share of 14 hour days, the reinbursement for travel was never enough to cover expenses; and I've dug money out of my pocket to pay for meals for foreigners because my protocol said the government would only pay for 1 lunch, with a 3 day visit.  I'm proud of what I did, just like you are probably proud of what you did.  I made a difference sometimes. 

I'd like you to realize that everything you have read, heard or maybe even experinced does not represent the whole. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/23/2016 10:52:51 PM (updated 2/23/2016 11:00:00 PM)

Panty hose in a wad is a figure of speech..  You can wear bloomers and I wouldn't care.

One of the best mountain movers in the Air Force today is not a pilot, and in fact is an acquisition guy.  When CSAF Gen Mark Welch recounted his experience during his O-10 promotion ceremony he stated that this gent always ranked first of his peers, even when as an O-4 he was ranked against O-6s, still ranked the best.  I didn't know that until I heard Gen Welch recount why he was a chosen for O-10 (General).  This gent worked for me as an O-1 (2nd Lt) and we have kept close over the years....we recognized the potential and the Air Force agreed based on performance.  Bottom line, Hound, is that for every one of your pronouncements of fact, there are equally valid counter facts.  I am not getting personal, just tired of your thinking your pronouncements are the only game in town.  

You continue to assail my association with imperfect contractors.  I can tell you right now I work for one of those imperfect contractors, and could have easily said "F... It, I am out of here", but I stay on because the Government needs at least one sane voice among the cacophony of BS.  My primary antagonist is the epitome of what is wrong with the Government beurocracy....an empire builder who is more interested in consolidating power than doing what the Government needs.  I keep fighting because of what is right, not who has the power.  In a way it follows your "why didn't they confront the Director" question.  Well, I am confronting the issue, in spite of my employer's greed.  Yourbsuggestion that I should resign because they are a chit-bag organization would just mean the bad guys win.  It ain't all black and white, my friend.

This will be my last post on this subject.  You really need to back off and consider that maybe everything is not as you might or might not have observed.  I am willing to consider that others might have different opinions based on different experiences.  Are you?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/24/2016 10:00:34 AM

I have never thought mine was the only opinion or the only experiences.  But, I worked in government at every level from the field to the Office of Secretary of Defense over a 32 year period.  I think I have a pretty good handle on how civilians are - and it is not all the negative image that you and other people would portray.  I think I always say that "in my experience" which means what it says.  it's not the only experience, but it is mine.  Just as your experience is not the only one either.  Just because flyfisher walks through a VA office and perceives he sees someone playing computer games doesn't mean that every VA office is like that. I could talk about the bad experience I had with Alabama Power over the building of my boathouse, but I don't damn everyone that works for Alabama Power based on that experience. 

Yes you had experience too, but I wish you would portray it in a more balanced way.  Yes, there are jerks, there are slacker, but even you would have to admit that there are also a lot of good, committed people. 

I'm proud of my service and I'm not going to change, just to conform to prevailing anti-government sentiment or the myth that all government workers are lazy slackers, which seems to the prevailing sentiment on this forum.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/24/2016 11:09:39 AM

Wow, I wonder if you really read my posts.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/24/2016 11:36:45 AM

Yes, I do read your posts.  And yes you have said that there are some committed civilians, but it seems to me that you tend to conform to this anti-government sentiment.  I suspect over a long period of time, we both have seen the good, the bad and the ugly.  I will never deny that there are bad judgements, mistakes, hard-headedness, waste, knee jerk reactions.  And I don't believe the government, in general, is always the best stewards of the taxpayers money.  But for the most part, I don't believe that people go into it intending for these things (with maybe the exception of that GSA manager who spent all that money on conferences)to happen.  I would like for people to understand that there are other factors that they may not know about - like that supposedly $600 toilet seat. 

  I just can't imagine where you got the idea that I don't respect our military or the sacrifices that they make every day.   

And my remark about the pantyhose was supposed to be tongue in cheek.  Although I can't imagine having to wear pantyhose every day in these hot, humid summers. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/24/2016 12:58:37 PM

To recap, my direct experience with DoD, DHHS, TSA, and Treasury shows the DoD to stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to the quality and dedication of the civilian workforce.  My experience outside the DoD has been that the first consideration in any action is the political one, the "who, not what", and that the useful work per dollar outside the DoD is far less.  That being said, there are definitely slackers, both civilian and uniformed, within the DoD.  With regard to the supporting contractor workforce there are those who provide a dollar or more worth of value for each dollar spent, and there are those who are opportunists and screw the Government at each and every turn.  Others can provide anecdotal evidence supporting their views; I would have to believe there are attaboys and awshits aplenty, no matter which governmental activity one speaks of.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	2/24/2016 7:00:07 PM

My sister is a support contractor to the government.  I hear plenty.  She often feels totally unappeciated for her contributions.  She does budgeting, and program management support and works for PM  at Aberdeen.  She was just telling me about an upcoming meeting with a very demanding Asian customer, who feels that their concerns are not being addressed.  Apparently the government just replaced the FMS Program Leader and they feel they will be able to tap dance through the next review, although they have not addressed their action items.  It's going to be a bloodbath.

My other sister works for the government and I won't want to repeat in polite company what she has to say about the new workforce, i.e., the Millenials. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	There are bad folks in ALL large organizations
Date:	2/24/2016 7:10:50 PM

One of the most reviled government agencies is the post office and much of it is deserved...but they do get a letter from Key West to Nome in 2 or 3 days for 49 cents!

a couple of weeks before Christmas I received a letter from the IRS.  It said I owed about $3000 plus penalties  because of an error in my 2014 return.  It pointed out where the calculation error occured and said in a very unpleasant manner that the underpayment must be received in 21 days or bad things would happen.  It had a toll free number to call to discuss.  Concerned, I got out my tax files and checked the math and could find no error.  I called the number and was of course put on hold...for 42 minutes!  Finally an IRS employee came on the line, I am not sure, but she sounded as if she was African American.  She listened to my explanation while looking at the return.  She asked if she could put me on hold while she did some checking.  I agreed and after another hold of 10 minutes she finally came back on the line and said she and an associate had carefully considered the situation, found my figures were correct and their auditor's were wrong and asked that I accept the apology of the IRS.  She instructed me to expect a letter confirming the reversal within 2 to 3 weeks.  I received the confirmation 19 days later!  Several years ago I had a similar error (a double withdrawal from my account) by a very large nationally known bank.  It took 2 weeks to get an admission of the error, the funds restored to my account,  overdraw  fees for "bounced" checks due to their error restored and a letters of apology sent to each receiver of the bad checks....no apology was ever offered to me!

Big breeds bad...in government and private business, but big does not always have to result in rudeness.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting...
Date:	2/24/2016 10:17:16 PM (updated 2/24/2016 10:19:40 PM)

The workforce I am currently most familiar with consists of Ethiopians, Kenyans, Nigerians, and Ugandans...all motivated to accomplish the mission.  They are living the American Dream and are superb performers.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting...
Date:	2/24/2016 10:54:31 PM

I think that they know what it is to be poor - not American poor, but really poor.  They appreciate what they have here. They probably appreciate the chance to work and make a good income.  My college advisor was Nigerian.  Africans are much different than African Americans. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	There are bad folks in ALL large organizations
Date:	2/24/2016 11:02:25 PM

Big organizations, small organizations, they are all people and everyone is different.  Sometimes someone may just be having a bad day.  Or you may be having a bad day and have a bad attitude and people respond to that.  They may have something going on in their life that you know nothing about.  They may be working for a jerk. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting...
Date:	2/24/2016 11:39:56 PM

Quite a stretch for you to assume where they come from...you don't know.  Why do you pronounce?  You really need to stick with what you know.  I work with them day to day.  Reckon maybe I know better than you?  What can you tell us about Eden?  Antonnete?, Fredrick?, Lillian?, Joy?  Layi? Hatem?  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	There are bad folks in ALL large organizations
Date:	2/24/2016 11:42:01 PM

Weak.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Interesting...
Date:	2/25/2016 6:52:16 PM (updated 2/25/2016 6:58:14 PM)

HUH?  I was responding to what you posted. Didn't you say that they were from Africa and living the American dream? Didn't you mention that they were Ethopians, etc? 

I have dealt with maybe a dozen Africans from Africa over the years. And it is MY OBSERVATION and OPINION that Africans, from AFRICA, are different from African Americans in this country (who are not from Africa).  As I mentioned, my college advisor was from Nigeria.  He was schooled in the U.S. and held a PhD from Catholic University.  I had two classmates from Africa, one was from Cameroon and one was from another country, which I cannot remember at this moment.  I dealt with the first team from Algeria.  They had been trained as bush frighters by the soviets, but their team leader, with no formal education, coud recite poetry and quote from books.  I have a friend from South Africa, and I dealt with the first MILDEP team that came from South Africa to the U.S.  They were also bush fighters that had been trained by the Soviets.  They didn't think they would like to visit the Pentagon, but they were won over by the full honors that were rendered to them upon their arrival.  One of the women was a General, who was the common law wife of the Minister of Defense.  She wanted to find something to take home to her daughters, but even Walmart was very expensive for her.  I'm not counting the converations I had with a Congolese who was wrapping up his training in the U.S. and was begging for a way to stay, because he felt that he would be murdered if he got off the train in DROC. 

But you are sure right about one thing - I don't know anything about the people you are working with.

Really Hodja, I think  having been gone from Alabama too long is going to your head.  I have no intention of engaging in bickering with you.  Don't read my posts if they offend you.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	On government excess & inefficiency
Date:	3/23/2016 8:17:21 AM

http://www.wnd.com/2016/03/tea-party-beats-irs-in-federal-court/