Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/20/2016 12:48:29 PM

So true!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/20/2016 5:47:30 PM

they really do seem to hate him. I have a subscription on the Washington Post, and I have yet to see a good article about him; they seem more than willing to support Hilary without questioning her ethics.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/20/2016 8:50:48 PM

They hate him because they know they cant control him, much the same as the Republican establishment.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/20/2016 9:22:52 PM (updated 5/20/2016 9:23:52 PM)

And when it boils all down that is what I like the most.  It may be wild but so many folks, on both sides, are scared for DJT to become President.  Upset the apple wagon, open new cans of worms, get some folks out of the trough, rock the boat.

And, you know, I think he will "care" about what he builds!  Not worry about how much he makes from it.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 9:53:46 AM

Got to disagree on this one.   There has been plenty of news coverage of the Clinton "scandals", but they have come to nothing because there is nothing there.   Bengazi is a good example.   2 years of Congressional hearings, millions of dollars spent on investigation... and the only revelation is that she had a home email server.     Follow-up investigations of that are concluding that this was a breach of standard operating procedure... but not more than that.   

Trump is worthy of the news coverage he gets... he loves it and knows how to create it.  

He doesn't have any of the qualifications you would want in a President... but supporters seem to be actively ignoring that. 

Why would you want to elect a game-show host to the highest office in the land?  Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd... if not completely dangerous?

The real danger of Donald Trump is that he is not being held to any of the standards that are needed in a national leader, and his supporters have a huge blind spot (and short memories) when it comes to his behavior.

Beware your hatred of H Clinton, it may be over-riding your judgement when it comes to Trump.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 2:54:01 PM

Well said and good questions, but nobody is listening.  Nobody cares.  Blind and unreasoned hatred of the Clintons (or anybody with no "R" after their name), rather than careful consideration of what a Trump presidency means, calls all the shots!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 3:47:36 PM

I don't hate the Clintons, although I do remember that by the end of Bill Clinton's Administration, there was more than enough scandal to go around, including Hilary taking expensive items that were gifts to the country, not to them personally.  There have been more than enough stories about how Hilary treated the Household Staff of the WH. She had a chance as First Lady to come up with a viable health care program, and she was unable to do that.   I'm not sure what you would consider her "accomplishments" as Secretary of State, and I do not blame her for Bengahzi.  And given some of the things that happened during her tenure as SecState, such as the "Arab Spring", I think the case could be made that she botched that.  I cannot think of any major treaties that were signed during her tenue, or any real diplomatic initiatives that were successful. So I am not sure what makes her so qualified to be President. 

It's not so much that I am in love with Donald Trump or that he would be my first choice as President, but I do believe that he will not be so willing to fall in with the party line.  He isn't a foreign policy expert, but then neither is Obama, who has made plenty of missteps.   George Bush made mistakes too.  Trump will have advisors, he will have the NSC, he will have a SecState.  Yes, he is brash but he will hardly be the first brash President we have had.  I believe he will say some things that have needed to be said to the world at large, but others have not wanted to say.  And I know of no requisite that says our President has to be beloved by the UK government.  It is my observation that the UK likes to pull out their "special relationship" only when it suits their needs. 

And I will retierate that no one is necessarily qualifed to be President the day they take office.  It's OJT.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 5:11:13 PM

H Clinton did not 'botch' her healthcare initiative... it was roundly opposed by the conservatives at that time and struck down...   Too much, too soon.   The Obamacare package was the 2nd attempt to reform the system and was successful...although full of compromises that I wish it didn't have.  Frankly her efforts here sure eclipsed other First Ladies...... for instance, Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign and Lady Bird Johnson's Beautify America program......  even Michelle Obama's child nutrition initiative.   It was big, bold and too soon for that reform to take place.   It did, however, start the ball rolling and she should be given credit for being well ahead of other politicians in seeing that we needed it.

The 'Arab Spring' was not under the control of the US Secretary of State.   No way, no how.   

I remember her being  a very active Sec. of State, commuting into the Middle East and elsewhere on a regular basis.   

The 'scandals' of the White House gifts and how she allegedly treated the White House staff seem like made up fluff to me.  Nothing there of sufficient weight to be important in the context of electing the President of the US.

My take on her is that she has simply been around long enough, and has stuck her neck out far enough, to give lots of opportunities to criticize her in various ways.   Most of those criticisms are over-weighted with presumptions about her that are baseless.   There has been an active propaganda campaign associated with the Bengazi committee that has been intent on lynching her.  Propaganda is not factual.  

She did not open a bogus "University", selling tuition for $30,000 plus... then delivering nothing on the promises made.   The Court cases on that will be happening this Fall.     She was not responsible for her husband's sexual indiscretions, unless every woman whose husband is unfaithful is to be held responsible for what her husband does.   She did not call men "pigs & dogs" when she thought they were ugly and not sufficiently sexy for her.   She did not give hours & hours of Howard Stern interviews about her sex life.  She did not pose as her own publicity director to give interviews admiring herself.    She does not claim to be a champion of veterans causes, and then insult a respected Senator as a loser because he was captured and tortured in Viet Nam.   She did release her tax returns, all of them.   She did not file bankruptcy on a half-dozen very expensive real estate ventures leaving other investors with tremendous losses.   She does not make fun of reporters who have birth defects.  She does not think that women who get abortions should be punished, then say she didn't say that at all.

Her real world experience with foreign relations and domestic policy far outshine the bluster & shallowness of Donald Trump's ability & track record.   And no one, no one, matches the dangerousness of Donald Trump when it comes to his willingness to say anything that pops into his head.   Not only does he not have foreign policy experience, he is likely to create diplomatic crisis after diplomatic crisis simply because he thinks he is bulletproof.

The rest of us are not bulletproof.   He is going to make the world a much meaner and more dangerous place if you elect him.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Geez....verbosity personified
Date:	5/21/2016 6:13:52 PM (updated 5/21/2016 6:14:36 PM)

A meaner and more dangerous world will be a welcomed world, compared to the muslim centered, stupidity we have lived with the past two terms.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Geez....Wix
Date:	5/21/2016 8:18:28 PM (updated 5/21/2016 8:20:00 PM)

I hope you are just blowing smoke because it is troubling to think you are really as ignorant and stupid as your last post!!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 8:27:06 PM

Yes, she traveled extensively, but what did it accomplish? Where are the major diplomatic initiatives, the treaties I'm not blaming her for Arab Spring, mind you, but she was supposed to be helping shape our response to it.  And in my humble view, I think we went too far too fast.  And I am not aware of any change of culture within the State Department under her tenure, as there was under Colin Powell's and Condoleeza Rice's leadership. 

And I beg to differ with you about her healthcare initiative when she was First Lady.  it was convoluted and totally unaffordable.  I applaud Obama from coming up with something, even though the roll out was botched and it definitely needs some tweaking.

And I think the way you treat a staff or the people who serve you speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Geez....Archwizard
Date:	5/21/2016 10:07:36 PM (updated 5/21/2016 10:12:39 PM)

I meant ever da-- word of it!!!  Meaner toward enemies of America,and a more dangerous environment for muslim militants and illegals.  Does that bother you?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Geez....Archwizard
Date:	5/21/2016 10:45:02 PM (updated 5/21/2016 10:47:35 PM)

From you no.  From a ego-maniacial blow hard imbecile like Donald Trump as president, he!! yeah!!!

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	What?
Date:	5/21/2016 11:00:25 PM

Two years of Muslim centered stupidity?    What alternate universe are you living in?

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/21/2016 11:36:13 PM

My sense of her tenure at State was that she had her hands full monitoring a regional crisis of historic proportions... a trial by fire for any diplomat  to be sure.   No treaties, that's right, but you may be overlooking the years of work that ultimately led to a nuclear treaty with Iran that were underway while she was head of State.       At that same time Trump was posturing on the social scene here in the US, hosting a reality TV show, and vainly 'promoting his brand'...while she was working with governments around the world to contain the deterioration of order in the Middle East... which we have long considered to be the most dangerous place on earth.   I don't think there is any substitute for diplomatic experience, and Trump has none.    She has plenty.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moved too fast', it seems to me that we were not in control from the get-go... and our options were pretty limited.    We did move too far, too fast... beginning with the invasion of Iraq, IMO.   After slapping that tar baby, we are having trouble pulling our hand back out.     Also, opinions of changes in the culture of the State Department are so far beyond my experience that I have no idea how to respond.   I don't know anything about the culture of the State Department, I just expect them to do their very complex job of staying on top of our international relations.   I am going to assume that the majority of those people are extremely well suited to their jobs, knowledgeable, and appreciate what Presidential indiscretions can do to the delicate business they conduct for us.

I recognize they have a particularly complex and nuanced job to do, and would bet dollars to donuts that you can't find too many veteran diplomats and staffers at State who think that Trump will be doing the world a service with his antics.   Maybe I'm wrong, maybe someone in the diplomatic corps or their alumni will say he's a great leader who will crush our enemies with a mighty hand!

But I hope those people are few and far between. 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	What?
Date:	5/22/2016 7:23:37 AM

I said two terms, 8 years, not 2 yrs as you stated, and yes I meant it.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Geez....Archwizard
Date:	5/22/2016 7:29:40 AM

Can't stand the thought of your beloved terrorists, illegal criminals, and social misfits being treated as they should be treated instead of being treated as a privileged class the way the dimokraps like to do, can ya?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Thanks!!
Date:	5/22/2016 3:02:36 PM (updated 5/22/2016 3:03:37 PM)

This forum needed that!!  Based on the increase in corporate profits and the rise in the DOW over the last 7 years, he ain't much of a Socialist either.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Mountain out of a molehill
Date:	5/22/2016 4:44:06 PM

State Employees have a difficult time in being utilized.  Yes, they have the experience and the knowledge, but very often the SecState doens't consult them or listen to their advice.  Additionally, a good portion of the Ambassorial positions go to wealthy supporters and not to career diplomats.  And in places like Africa, they tend to tap people from the Peace Corps. So many of the State professionals are frustrated when the high ranking Sec State and Dep SecState and other ranking Directors and Bureau Chiefs ae poliitcal appointments. 

During his tenure, Colin Powell changed the culture by actually consulting the staff and utilizing them.  Also, I think for the first time, they were required to do some planning, which they have not been very good at.  (a joke in DoD is taking a job a State where they think you can walk in order if you can put together a logical plan. And planning and execurtion is one thing you definitely learn in Dod). 

And Condoleeza Rice told them to get out of their offices, get out of the Embassy and go and interact with the country they were assigned. That was a huge change too. 

As far as the Iraq Treaty, time will tell if it is a good deal or a bad deal.  Treaties are a bit of a joke, in that they rarely posess any "teeth" for noncompliance.  I don't know if it is the disaster that the Republicans claim, but I suppose at least some it provides a framework for discussion with Iraq.  I think it is too soon to declare victory or disaster. 

I'm not sure why you keep harping on Donald's show, The Apprentice.  Yes, it is something he did, but it is not the only thing he did.  Mostly he has been a real estate mongul.  Yes, he has done some things that failed, but at least he was doing things - failure is part of life and hopefully you learn from it.  Even the sainted Ronald Reagan (and I say that tongue in cheek) was a movie actor and a screen guild president, before he became governor and eventually President. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	How DoD is Different
Date:	5/22/2016 4:53:50 PM

Most Federal agencies plan with the assumption they are right and things will go as planned.  With DoD planning they start with an expectation of a nominal outcome, but everything after that is planning predicated on things going wrong.  DoD MUST plan for the worst, else people die.  If other Federal agencies' plans go awry they just go to Congress for a supplemental appropriation.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	How DoD is Different
Date:	5/22/2016 9:10:16 PM

You are right. A number of things I worked on with State, proved to me that they were much follow the "let's build a snowman in the desert and see if it melts" school.   Common sense and logic and planning that is just expected in DoD, generally doesn't apply at State. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	How DoD is Different
Date:	5/22/2016 9:54:37 PM

The more we discuss where we are as a nation, emphasis on accomodation, and a govt workforce, the more I am inclined to long for a businessman shakeup of the whole process.  Will he step on some toes? You bet.  Will he run into bureacratic clogmire?  You bet.  Will he keep pushing?  Without a doubt.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	How DoD is Different
Date:	5/22/2016 10:30:07 PM

I think that is what most people are banking on.  There is no question that things need to be shaken up.  A bull in a china shop?  Maybe that is what is needed. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	How DoD is Different
Date:	5/22/2016 10:47:18 PM

The china shop analogy is spot on.  There are a whole lot of fragile egos in this town and they need to be in that shop when the bull comes through.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	2 responses
Date:	5/23/2016 10:34:52 AM

Interesting thread, and I’ll limit myself to two comments to keep it simple.   First: I keep mentioning Trump’s TV game show because it is so indicative of where he has come from and what he is about.   He started out as a wealthy son of a developer, made a fortune, inherited a fortune… went on to master the use of media to promote himself.   He did this so well that we now consistently refer to his single most important accomplishment to be ‘promoting his brand’… a series of business ventures that were basically showcases for his personality, i.e., Trump University, Trump Steaks, beauty pageants, and a slew of sleazy interviews that put on display his complete distain for anyone except himself.   He is a master of self-promotion, believes he is beholden to no one…. But also he has no interest in what you would call the Common Good.    His philanthropic efforts have really been about self-inflating publicity, not helping other people.  His history in business is packed with examples of self-indulgent & shameless behavior that, for some reason, his followers admire.   Personally, I think his popularity is a reflection of how much we worship wealth in this country…   no one admires Trump for being a statesman like figure, or a great thinker, or a wise leader… he is given all this devotion simply because he is the richest guy who has mastered self-promotion thru the media.   To me, supporting a guy like that is a huge mistake.  As he tries to make it to the office of President, we would be wise to remember that nothing Trump has done in his life has ever been about the public good.  It’s been about The Donald.

The next thing is harder to describe because I don’t know what to make of it.   Both Hound and Hodja have extensive experience as federal employees and both seem to be saying that they support Trump because he will “shake things up in Washington”.     Both of you seem extremely confident that the disruptions that he would cause will be good for everyone.   Both seem confident that his ‘disruption’ will create something good in the culture of government.      The fact is there is no basis for believing that releasing a bull in this china shop will create a better, more stream-lined or efficient government.  I would suggest that his brand of disruption is more likely to set off a stream of unintended negative consequences here and abroad.   Donald will have as much success in rebuilding government service as I would have if I tore down the engine in my truck and tried to put it back together by trial & error.

It’s surprising to me that people so familiar with the workings of government can have this much confidence in the leadership of a complete novice, and so confident that the world is so safe & stable that his missteps won’t become tragedies that the rest of us will have to live with.     I see huge risks in supporting a guy with his character, and I don’t want to gamble that everything will turn out OK if we have confidence in the Anarchy of Donald Trump.      

And a final factoid:   Colin Powell has supported the Democratic nominee in both of the past two POTUS elections, and is aghast at the prospect of a Trump presidency.    He says he is keeping up his GOP membership “just to annoy” people who have taken his party is the wrong direction.   Maybe GOP supporters should be listening to what he has to say.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	5 replies
Date:	5/23/2016 11:01:50 AM (updated 5/23/2016 11:10:46 AM)

Unfortunately (or fotunately, depends on how you look at it) you will not get me past

1. Not Hillary

2. Yes it is good to shake up what we call GOVT.  It is a culture (read Lois Lerner, the dude who bragged about fooling normal folks on Obamacare doctors and plans, the dude who bragged about fooling normal folks on Iran Get the Bomb deal, current I have not clue IRS director) that must be rained in

3.  Not Hillary

4.  All the inexperience you speak of works for current guy too.

5.  Unfortuantely for Hillary her experience is the damaging part.

But, my goodness, you have given Trump some careful thought.  I think we might just win you over.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	5 replies
Date:	5/23/2016 3:13:30 PM

To #2 quickly add the current head of VA = just compared Veteran medical wait times to the lines at DisneyWorld.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	5 replies
Date:	5/23/2016 6:43:11 PM

To #2 quickly add = and now the Department of Justice (JUSTICE, don't want you to miss that) is being ordered to have training in ethics (ETHICS, don't want you to miss that).  Come on Bull, the china shop is getting bigger by the day.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Correction
Date:	5/23/2016 7:17:15 PM

You lump Hound and me together....wrong thing to do.  She and I differ on a lot of points, and I dare you to go back and search my posts for any laudatory comments regarding T rump.  In fact if you look closely you will find that I said if it were Trump v Hillary I would hold my nose and vote for Trump.  As time goes by and he demonstrates that he can be "presidential" my stronghold on the proboscis relaxes a little.

You seem fixated on Trump as the Devil incarnate.  I just don't think he is THAT bad.  So relax a little, because you are not going to change any opinions on this forum, nor will I.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	2 responses
Date:	5/23/2016 7:58:30 PM

So am I to understand that you don't believe that Hilary and Bernie are not self promoters?  I may give on Bernie there, but I think Hilary is a shameless self promoter. And if you want to criticize Trumps wealth, what about Hilary's?  You may recall that Bill and Hilary were not millionaires when they went into the WH, but they sure made up for lost time once they were there and beyond.  And didn't Hilary and Bill buy both a million dollar home in NY and another one in Georgetown, DC once they left.  And I seem to recall that the loans for the NY house were made by a private investor... for what purpose? 

Yes, Trump is a self promoter - as is everyone that runs for President, because if they weren't and they weren't narcissists to some extent, they wouldn't run.   As far as the Trump failures - well, that tells me that he saw a market and pursued it. Some things just don't work out. He is a businessman.

As far as "fixing" government, even when I was still working, I thought there needed to be reforms. I would not necessarily slash all these departments that some of the GOP would do, but I think more thought needs to put into what these agencies are doing and does it still need to be done?  A lot of government gets put in place to solve a particular problem, then someone decides it needs more oversight, and the next thing you know, it has taken on a life of it's own.   And in my limited experince (DOD), the Employee to Manager ratio continue to get smaller - and on that trajectory, pretty soon everyone is a chief and there are no Indians.  You would have no way to know this, but when Congress gets involved, they want to shove all decision making to the highest possible level, which is ridiculous since you are paying a lot of people very, very well for their expertise.

But beyond that, I am fed up with the relationship between the WH and Congress.  Congress is no longer doing its job, and now you have a small group in Congress setting the agenda (and more moderate GOP and Democratic members  are afraid to go against the party line).  The WH is supposed to set the agenda, and Congress is supposed to work out the details.  And I have a pretty good feeling that Trump will not be afraid to stand up to "business as usual". 

And the rest of the world?  No, I would not want to see Trump tramp all over our relationships, BUT, I think it is time countries understand that the U.S. will act in it's best interest, not necessairly their best interests. I've got a lot of experience dealing in international, and have seen the arrogance of some of these other countries, considering that they will have to hope like h*ll that we save their bacon, as we did in Kuwait.   We need to have a quid pro quo.  I can assure you that other countries look out for their own interests.  For example, about 10 years ago, the UK threatened to start decontrolling very sensitive defense technology, which would permit them to sell this stuff to countries we have national security concerns about.   I sat in on some negotiations with the UK on a framework document.  We spent 3 days on one sentence, because the UK refused to compromise.  I could give you 50 examples.  So I welcome a President that would be prepared to walk away from the table, rather than cave.

Do I have concerns about Trump?  Yes.  But it is not his lack of political and governmental experience.  My concern is really about whose advice he would take (and the thought of Newt Gingrich as the VP makes me sick to my stomach).

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Correction
Date:	5/24/2016 12:15:13 AM

Devil incarnate?   No, I’m not gonna give him that much credit, though he would love it if we did.

But I have to say that I have all kinds of (very rational) fears based on what I think his personality is… my opinions formed by a huge amount of information, interviews, work history and media coverage about him that is available to anybody.     I just see that he is dangerously narcissistic, and I think there are a lot of people who are inclined to ignore evidence that supports that same conclusion.    There is so much observed personal behavior to judge him by, much more than any previous presidential candidate.  And it’s too much to ignore.     In my opinion, Donald Trump has a serious personality pathology, I think of him as a malignant narcissist.    

   I am probably going to bore everyone but it really is becoming my hobby to watch Trump, and you can expect me to continue to bring stuff up.   I don’t have to change anyone’s mind, Donald’s own behavior should do that over time.     Meanwhile, pointing out examples of these alarming and sometimes dangerous behavior traits is sort of a community service. 

My new motto is Friends don’t let friends vote Trump.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	2 responses
Date:	5/24/2016 12:36:38 AM

You are right, these guys are politicians and very much self-promoters.   That’s part of their game.  

But I concern myself more with how & why the self-promotion was done.   In the case of Donald Trump, his self-promotion was not about political causes & social agendas, … it was about the gathering adulation to himself for no reason other than he enjoyed it.  He wasn’t doing it to run for office and didn’t need to be outspoken to make more money.    Donald likes to be on display, feared, held in awe, admired and he sees in himself a man who is simply better than everyone else.   That lack of humility & desire to dominate others are bad signs. 

Friends don’t let friends vote Trump!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Now Copperline
Date:	5/24/2016 10:22:36 AM

Don't tell me that Hilary isn't running for her own glorification.... she believes she deserves to the be the First Woman President.  I don't believe she cares any more about  principles and "for the common" good than Trump.  Their styles are somewhat different, but at the end of the day, I think that they have more in common than they are different. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	5/24/2016 4:55:58 PM (updated 5/24/2016 5:02:58 PM)

At least we agree about Gingrich.  If Trump and Gingrich were in an arena with 15,000 people they would probably kill each other trying to show who was the smartet person in the room!  Reality is if those 2 and one other off the street Joe are in a closet together it very likely Joe will be the superior intellect!

If Trump does select Newt will it cause you to consider either Hillary or Johnson / Weld?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	5/24/2016 6:03:01 PM

I'll cross that bridge when it happens. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	5/24/2016 10:27:00 PM

I hope you don't get to that bridge.  Trump is madness, Trump AND Gingrich is knee walking carpet chewing insanity!!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	5/24/2016 10:27:10 PM

There is a psychological profile in The Atantic Monthly this month that I think you would enjoy reading.  You'd probably find yourself nodding in agreement with their assessment.  The article is entitled "The Mind of Donald Trump"