Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Sorrow for Orlando
Date:	6/12/2016 4:25:51 PM

As most of you know,  I believe in the right to have guns, so this is not an anti-gun message.

But it sickens me to think that someone would go into a nightclub and shoot dozens of people.  50 dead, 53 injured, some of those critically.  No matter what you believe about the LGBT community, the people that were killed were somesone's sons, daughters, siblings.  They were someone's loved ones.  No one had the right to kill them 

The night before this took place, a young woman with a budding singing careeer was gunned down by an armed man, while she was signing autographs.  Again, someone's daughter, someone's sister, someone's friend. 

So sad, so pointless. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Sorrow for Orlando
Date:	6/12/2016 4:45:31 PM

Hound twice you voted for a man who wrote, haha, in his own biography that if things ever turned ugly between us and the Muslims he would side with his "Muslim brothers". He and his minions are bringing in "refugees" by the millions hut sooth us by pointing out that it is only 1% that live to kill us so we have to let them keep coming.  I haven't looked at any news in hours now but I am sure that folks are going to come forward, just like in San Bernardino, and say they were concerned but afraid to say anything because they were afraid of being branded a racist. The FBI investigated the guy twice. Welcome to the new America.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Orlando Muslim killer....
Date:	6/12/2016 5:28:28 PM

I just read that the killer has worked for 7 years as a security guard, partly at a college in FL, and is weapons trained.  Now who does the responsibility for this mass murder fall on?  Seems to me the perp was not investigated properly and when he was investigated, as a result of some "red flag" incident, nothing was done by LE.  My guess is o-BAMA's Muslim handlers have the hands of the FBI, and all LEOS, tied to the point they don't dare mention the word Muslim.  So now, the hmfnwic comes out blaming guns.....what an indiot.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Lifer you are pathetic
Date:	6/12/2016 5:47:12 PM (updated 6/12/2016 5:53:47 PM)

Not only do you try to use a tragic event where at least 50 of your fellow citizens died to push the extreme rightwing talking points but you use a lie to do it.

A rightwing blogger claimed this quote was from Obama's book..."I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

That and several other "quotes" from this blog have been completely debunked.  but it still is spouted by you and your fellow travelers.  I'm sure you agree with Goebbels "Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth."

That quote DOES NOT appear anywhere in anything Obama has ever written or said!!

His second book did have a discussion of the fear, hysteria and panic following 9-11 which included some harsh words and some harsh actions against Arab and Pakistani CITIZENS.  Obama says "They (these Arab and Pakistani citizens) are reminded that the history of American immigration has a dark underbelly.  They need assurance that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned good lessons from the japanese internments during World War II.  I will stand with them if the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

SO WILL I!!

Your claim of "millions of refugees" is also a slight exaggeration...so for it is 7,000 and Obama is pushing for admission of 30,000...about the same number as Canada which has 10% of our population.  Germany has admitted 700,000! Only Turkey has admitted "millions" (2 million)

"Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth."

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Archidiot
Date:	6/12/2016 5:52:12 PM

o-BAMMIE's proclamation.  Arch, how many Arabs are not muslims?  Arab=muslim....fact.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Ja-whol Herr Wix
Date:	6/12/2016 6:06:38 PM (updated 6/12/2016 6:11:02 PM)

He was addressing the fact they are US citizens...not their religion.

Do you disagree that if they are a United States citizen...Muslim, Arab, Atheist, Jew, White, Black, Yellow or Brown, rich, poor, gay or straight, man, or woman, or something in between, and if they have committed no crime, they deserve and must have ALL the rights and protections that you enjoy?

If a repressive government every tried to take away or abuse those rights and protectons without just cause which side would you stand with? 

Answer the questions for once without being a smart a**!!

BTW:  approximately 10% of Arabs are Christian...ever hear of Danny Thomas, ever been to George's or Manuel's Taverns in Atlanta, ever been to Marionite, or Melkite Catholic wedding or to an Antochian Orthodox festival?

Sieg Heil!

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Orlando Muslim killer....
Date:	6/12/2016 6:39:31 PM

You are too dense for me to waste my time with. You are the ONLY person I have ever heard even deny that he wrote it. I've heard it spun six ways from Sunday never denied. What about the copies of the audio book archy. I've heard the passages readbin his own voice straight from the audio version of the crap he called a book. My god the left really has done a number on you. I never thought I could say it but you are a bigger idiot than my liberal sister.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Archidiot
Date:	6/12/2016 6:47:14 PM

So you write Arab and Pakistani in the same sentence and now you want to make Arab a race while keeping Pakistani as a "CITIZEN".  You said CITIZEN....a citizen is a resident of a country not a race.  In your context Arab is a citizen of Saudi Arabia.  Yes, Arab can be a race, but you didn't use the word in that context.  Archidiot, you are such an easy stupid idiot.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	BTW, archidiot...
Date:	6/12/2016 6:55:01 PM

your cohart. fellow registered dimokrap, muslim mass murderer was accorded every right of an American citizen and he chose to take the route of a muslim terrorist....and he was finally killed.  BTW, the muslim, dimokrap terrorist's father, who is also a registered dimokrap has been seen on television in Afghanistan advocating conflict with Pakistan over the border conflict and in 2015 said publicly he was going to run for President of Afghanistan....all while living in the good ole USA in Florida.  Good dimokrap, good American.  Come on bubba, read up.....

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Sorrow for Orlando
Date:	6/12/2016 6:55:13 PM

What does any of this have to do with the loss of 50 souls and 53 others in the hospital.  The man that perpetuated this was born in NY city to Afghan immigrant parents.  He was an American Citizen.  Even a ban on all immigration would not have prevented this. 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Sorrow for Orlando
Date:	6/12/2016 7:23:13 PM

Acknowledgment by o-BAMA that MUSLIM terrorists exist in the world, and lo in the USA would be a good start to fixing the jihadi criminal muslim problem.  Until we admit they exist we can't fix the problem.  The fact that the perp was born in the USA does not solve any issue.  Since he pledged his soul to muslim ISIS, just before the murders he is no better than some slug killer in a muslim country.  The perp was a licensed security guard in FL, and trained in weapons, thanks to o-BAMA's lack of muslim oversight insisted upon by his muslim handlers in the white house.  He was twice investigated by the FBI...with their hands tied behind their backs by o-BAMA.  His father is a known sympathizer of the Afghan political system who has appeared on Afghan TV and declared he was gonna run for President in 2015.  What else does the gubment need.  It's time to do something.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Ja-whol Herr Wix
Date:	6/12/2016 7:25:52 PM (updated 6/12/2016 7:27:12 PM)

You truly are an idiot.  Look at the dang post.  I was referring to what the Obama quote was about, not my assessment of ethnic identities.  An Arab (Arab refers to an ethnic group, not someone from Saudia Arabia) can be a citizen of the USA, a native of Pakistan can be a citizen of the USA.  The persons addressed by Obama were CITIZENS of the US who happened to be of Arabic or Pakistani background.

Now, damit, answer the questions!

Sieg Heil mein Idiot!

BTW: Do you even know what the word race means? Another question for you to refuse to answer!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Sorrow for Orlando
Date:	6/12/2016 7:47:14 PM

You are right...nothing whatsoever.  I do get extremely angry when some of these nuts try to make political points from a tragedy and use lies to reinforce their sorry talking points.  I really truly suspect some of the usual posters on this forum are having conflicting thoughts about his terrible event...it was a Muslim shooter, using a legally obtained assualt  weapon to murder a group of "queers".

God save America!! We really need his help!  These kids were our fellow citizens who were other citizen's sons and daughters  They were out to enjoy being young and they were cut down by another citizen who is Muslim and a nut and some on this forum want to put the blame Obama!  God only knows what they would be spouting if this had been at a Southern Baptist Sunday School instead of a gay bar!  Lifer's filthy lie in response to your original post turned my stomach and it got worse with the nonsense spouted by Wix.  I really hope the Secret Service is monitoring this forum because I have never heard so much vile hatred spewed toward the President as offered up by this bunch.  I am pissed!!

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	What He really Wrote
Date:	6/12/2016 8:01:33 PM

Misleading e-mail: From Audacity of Hope: "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." 

Actual quote from "The Audacity of Hope" [pg. 261]: Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

Obama d

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Archliberalidiot
Date:	6/12/2016 8:44:47 PM

As I remember, a couple of years ago, you swore off the off topic forum, because you couldn't stand the truth, and you couldn't control the forum with your liberal lies.  Maybe it's time for you to retire to the Joke's Forum once again....this forum is about the truth, not you slanted view of liberalism.  I know a couple of retired Secret Service agents, and I can guarantee you they are more in my game than yours.  Wonder why this Muslim jihadi terrorist was a registered dimokrap?  Think about it....he was a member of your beloved political party.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Folks
Date:	6/12/2016 9:08:26 PM

50 souls met their maker last night.  Please let us remember them and the 50 plus who were also shot.  That they might have conducted their life in a way some of us don't understand or don't accept, doesn't matter.  These were 50 of God's children.

This talk about guns is pointless.  They don't have guns in Iraq, but those crazy people just grab a bomb and kill more than were killed last night.  Hell, Timothy McVeigh took out an entire building and its occupants with diesel fuel and fertilizer.

World War III is upon us and last night, I fear, is just an introductory skirmish.

In fact, last night is an even more stark reminder that the law abiding citizens should arm themselves.  A single armed patron last night might have been able to save literally scores of lives.

So Archie, Goofy, Lifer go ahead and attack me.  I don't care.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Folks
Date:	6/12/2016 10:00:46 PM

Well said.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Folks
Date:	6/12/2016 10:18:28 PM

Ditto.....

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	WHY???
Date:	6/12/2016 10:32:26 PM

Why would I attack you? I feel for those lost no different than you expessed. Making assumptions serve no useful purpose unless I am missing something.  I don't agree that allowing guns into clubs that serve booze for obvious reasons would be a good idea. On that, we disaree 100%.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Folks
Date:	6/13/2016 6:20:34 AM

Why wouldni attack you? I agree 100%.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Mr H
Date:	6/13/2016 8:35:57 AM (updated 6/13/2016 8:50:48 AM)

I do not attack you and appreciate your and Hound's generally level headed response to all that is going on.  In fact I agree 100% with all the points of your post excepting the last one.  With it I respectfully but strongly disagree.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	What He really Wore
Date:	6/13/2016 10:07:33 AM

http://blackquillandink.com/?page_id=13739

http://www.infowars.com/orlando-killer-worked-for-company-transporting-illegal-immigrants-inside-us-was-interviewed-by-fbi-3-times/

http://www.infowars.com/brother-in-law-of-nightclub-killer-hates-trump-works-with-refugees/

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 10:39:31 AM

Let me post a counter-point here but first let me say that what has happened in Orlando is absolutely tragic, and more than a little frightening as we go forward.   We need to be thoughtful, and measured, in our response to these things… especially since we cannot seem to agree on an approach that might make a difference. 

Conservative thinkers are reacting with a renewed defense of carrying weapons so we can defend ourselves against attackers, Liberals think that unrestricted carrying of guns makes life in our communities more dangerous.    Conservatives think this is another example of the murderous intentions of Islam, Liberals fear this will provoke more calls for restrictions on religious liberty.  Everybody seems to agree that the world is becoming a more dangerous place, but we can’t seem to agree on where the dangers are coming from.

My thing is to try to find what we have in common as we look at this.  We have to start somewhere, and the conservative/liberal gridlock around the issues isn’t helping much.   Maybe if we start from points of agreement, we can find a way thru this. 

We are only a couple of days into examining the Orlando shootings (remember that only a few miles away from this gay nightclub, a young singer was gunned down by a deranged fan only the week before), there may be couple of things we should note.   First, this shooter appears to have a history of anger issues rather than religious radicalism.   He was physically abusive toward his wife, known to co-workers for a bad temper and observed to have fits of outrage prompted by race, sexuality, etc.. such that co-workers didn’t want to have shifts with him.     To me, that points in the direction of mental illness rather than political or religious motivations, but at the last minute the shooter choose to associate himself with ISIS … perhaps because he wanted to elevate himself into something greater and more powerful than just the angry misfit that he was.   Cloaking himself at the last minute in a religious frame may mislead observers to think this was his primary motivation. 

The common denominator in the shootings in the church in South Carolina, Virginia Tech, Fort Hood, San Bernadino, Sandy Hook, the Oklahoma City bombing, the Unibomber, many others….  All may have the same two foundations.   Intolerance & rage filled over-reaction to social differences, and such incredibly poor anger control that you have to suspect mental illness. 

OK, so we can’t agree on gun control or whether we should be going to war with Islam… but perhaps we could agree that we all share too much intolerance for each other.   We resort to name-calling & insults too readily, condemn opposing viewpoints, and engage in varying degrees of character assassination rather than discussion.   We tend to see those who disagree with us as the enemy, as some other who we need to defend ourselves from.   

Two more points that may be worth noting right now:   First, “Think globally and act locally” suggests that we might not be able to change the whole world, but we can start with our little corner of it.   Increasing our own tolerance of each other, advocating for more cooperation & understanding could start right here on this forum.   Secondly, Pogo was absolutely right.   We have met the enemy, and it is us. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	What a pants load!
Date:	6/13/2016 12:20:50 PM

Making excuses for the inexcusable as usual. So copper what are we to make of his high school classmatesbwho claim he was cheering while the towers burned? Was he mentally I'll then also? If he has been so mentally ill  for so long how is it that one of you liberals hadn't identified him and " fixed" him? That's what you advocate right? Just some poor schlub that needed counseling.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 12:41:06 PM

We have met the enemy and it is among us, not of necessity US.  I know absolutely nothing about the orlando shooter but my thought is it had NOTHING to do with mental illness.  There are folks around this world, globally and locally, who want to destory us.  I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ and the Bible and all that, but really never thought the Armageddon thing would take place.  I have changed my mind.

Now your call for common ground will help the forum be "kinder and nicer" but the deep seeded anti-American beliefs and tenets are culturally instilled, religiously provoked and carries a "here's what you get if you kill some" thought of reward.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Lifer should know
Date:	6/13/2016 12:51:01 PM

he has sure as he!! shoveled enough of it on this forum!

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 7:00:18 PM

Not making excuses, trying to understand this event in a better (and more accurate) context than a simple black & white view that doesn’t stand a chance of solving the problem.

       You can’t simply lump all Muslims together and hold the entire religion responsible for this and expect things to get better.   You can’t endorse discrimination against them for their beliefs and the fact that there are radicals within their religion.  You can’t permit laws or our own cultural beliefs to act against these people without making the radical Islamic rhetoric stronger.   And remember what that rhetoric says… it says that the US & Christianity hates Islam.   You want to help them prove they are right?   Doesn’t sound very smart to me.

If people believe we should look at Islam & Muslims as one big mob of savages, you had better consider the violent crimes of Fundamentalist Christians and whether we should hold you responsible for the acts of people you don’t know or agree with. 

My definition of mental illness includes people who have marked difficulty holding their tempers in check, are prone to violent retaliation when offended, feel so strongly about their religious beliefs that they would be willing to kill other people.    It’s not about hallucinations or delusions which can be pretty easily observed.  I’m talking about mood, impulse control and judgement.   The main narrative about this guy is that he had a bad temper, saw two guys kissing in Miami, over-reacted with rage and went on to shooting up this night club.   Plenty of devout Muslims AND Christians have seen guys kissing, not all of them go berserk and massacre kids.   

And I’m not sure this guy was anything more than a ‘lone wolf’ who had no directions from superiors to follow, and there is no evidence of strict adherence to Islam that I can see at this point.   No change in his behavior evidencing that he followed the strict Islamic guidelines of radical true believers.   No beard.   Maybe he was a really poorly adjusted man whose life was deteriorating, he was angry & homophobic, and he found a dramatic way to commit suicide while making some last claim of righteousness after a life of crap.   If that could even be a partial explanation of the case, then we need to understand that radical Islam offers something of comfort to people like that.     

Religious Radicalism seems to attract madmen, don’t you agree? 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 7:12:22 PM (updated 6/13/2016 7:21:21 PM)

Radical, by definition, = extremism = where the mad souls are

Even KKK at its height was to some an extreme of religion, or culture.  It was bad, is bad.   If Omar had worn a hood during the shooting, or had a confederate flag around him, we would be attacking what we feel was his strong ties (kkk or southern, respectively).  Since he took the time to call 911 and claim allegiance to a radical islam group, and had indicated strong ties to the same previously, I think it is OK for us to look at, consider, and figure how we can protect ourselves from his strong ties.  And I think those ties are more dangerous than a confederate flag.

That position is not a "All Muslims are bad" position.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	WHY???
Date:	6/13/2016 7:23:14 PM

GF,

Although I do not go to bars to drink, I think that it would be wise to have a designated driver if I did.  Why not a designated "protection assistant"?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 8:07:47 PM (updated 6/13/2016 8:16:28 PM)

Would you not agree, that if a president of the United States, by executive order regardless of the wishes of congress, bans all followers of Islam from entering the country, would certainly send the message to all such adherents and anybody else that "All Muslims are bad"?

Another question, are you comfortable with a candidate for president clearly implying that the current president is somehow knowingly involved in this act of terror?

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/13/2016 8:12:48 PM (updated 6/13/2016 8:14:30 PM)

I would agree that the vetting process must be enhanced.  Not sure an Executive Order could get it done, but then the EO has become quite a tool for the tool.  Did you see the Saturday Night Live sketch about Laws vs Executive Order?  Precious.

Rhetoric, it's all rhetoric. 

HRK has a great idea....anyone under FBI investigation should not own a gun

If it were to happen, it would not say All M are bad.  It would say Safety First.  We are in a tough spot.  Folks hate us, they are here and they are coming

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Mr H
Date:	6/13/2016 8:21:33 PM

So you would rather have the result be 50 dead vice 10?  When are you folks going to get your head out of the (sand)?  The gun genie is out of the bottle and you aren't going to wish that away.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Hey wizards....
Date:	6/13/2016 11:01:36 PM

You all need to update your Muslim lovers excuse list: 

1). Perp may have been a homosexual.  He has been id'd by several as having been in Pulse as many as 12 times over the past couple of years.

2)  LE's are saying an accomplist will be arrested in a few days.

3). Don't ignore the perp's father is a Taliban sympathizer, if not a member.  He does tv in Afghanistan from the US, and has called for death to homos.

4). More, more, more.....

keep up girls and quit getting all your excuses from msnbc.......

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/14/2016 6:42:52 PM

As reluctant as I am to broad brush any particular group, I think it can also be dangerous to "look for the good" and stick our heads in the sand.  I have been to a number of Muslim countries and have met many Muslims.  It isn't that they hate us individually, but we are and always will be the Infidels.  They do not respect us, our coutry or our way of life.  It doesn't mean we can't do business, be allies at time, but at the end of the day, they believe that we are morally corrupt people and are Infidels to Islam. And knowing that, and seeing first hand, their desire to move here and bring their beliefs and way of life with them - i.e. not assilimating into U.S. culture, we need to be very careful  who we are allowing to come here.  I don't think that is prejudice, I just think that is smart. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Politically Incorrect
Date:	6/14/2016 8:18:57 PM

But spot on.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/14/2016 8:29:23 PM

You may be forgeting that we have been sending Christian missionaries to the Middle East and other Muslim countries for a couple of centuries for exactly the same reason... we think those people are heathens who need to be saved.   Islam has no corner on the market for religious extremism, nor harsh prejudice against non-believers.

We have also been exploiting their resources, primarily oil from the Middle East, while supporting various repressive governments whose only good points were that they protected our economic interests.   Our primary ally in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia, where much support for Sunni extremism is funded, while we focus on fighting Iran whose Shitte population hasn't brought a single terrorist operation into Europe or the US.    The ISIS extremists are Sunni, but we know so little about their religion that we think they are all the same. 

Making this a religious war will be a huge mistake.  Something like that can't end, and we will diminish ourselves by trying to simply frame Islam as the problem here.   We have to look more broadly for solutions than that, and alienating a huge population of people based on their religious beliefs is completely the opposite of what America has stood for.

Meanwhile, there is the question of practicality.   Can someone please give me examples of the kind of screening questions we will ask at US entry points that will identify a Muslim?  Should we just offer everyone a ham sandwich and arrest the ones that refuse?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/14/2016 8:52:35 PM

I haven't forgotten and frankly I think sending missionairies into foreign countries is a bad idea.  I know there are a lot of good stories that come out of doing that, Peace Corps and otherwise, but at the end of the day, we are always trying to "Chistian-ize" them and make them something they are not.  Look at what we did in Iraq - we destablized the country because a group of our lunatic political appointees thought it woud be a great idea to establish a democracy in the region.  We see how that came out and I don't think Iraqis suddenly have a better opinion of us.  I am aware of our long and sad history with Muslims and Muslim countries (at least as far back as the Shah).  They, rightly or wrongly, blame us. 

I would somewhat disagree with you about Saudi. We didn't exploit them, we did business with them to the extent it was in our mutual interest.  Despite what they now say, they would hardly be in a position to defend themselves for many cultural reasons.  They have neither the training nor the will.  As usual, they would pay someone else to defend them.

But when you know someone ranges from distrust to outright hatred of you, your beliefs and your way of life, do you then invite them to live with you?  I don't think so.  We need a better way to screen people who wish to move here.  Other countries do it.  They don't give access freely to whomever shows up.  We need to know who their families are (as in are they radicalized) who their associates are and their political connections.  We have the tools to do this, but we need to come up with a system that is workable.  I think that is smart.   And I believe on your visa application you have to list your religion. 

To just blindly ignore the problem and worry about hurting their feeling is just not smart. 

I'd love to live in a world where we didn't have to worry and we could just embrace the world, but that isn't the real world unfortunately. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/14/2016 10:04:39 PM (updated 6/14/2016 10:08:09 PM)

So we weed out the bad guys who want to hurt us by asking what their religion is?  For over a hindred years up into the 60's every person entering the US from a foreign nation was asked "Are you entering the United States with the intention of overthrowing the government?"...in all the years that was asked not a single person amswered "yes"!

I expect any Jihadist who knows a Muslim is not going to be admitted will very quickly be "saved" and become a Southern Baptist.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Do we NEED muslims in the USA???
Date:	6/14/2016 11:07:18 PM

NO!!!  Then why the hell do dimokraps let them come in by the hundreds of thousands.  Why do we let in any immigrant that will be of no value to America?  This freebie krap has got to stop....we only get the slugs who want to get in the freebie line with our native slubs.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/15/2016 7:55:35 AM

I hear some disdain for Christians and especially Southern Baptists.  What exactly do you dislike so much about them?

Do you think we would be better off as a nation if the refugees came to the country and became Southern Baptists, or if they came to the country and converted a Southern Baptist church to Islam?

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/15/2016 9:20:49 AM (updated 6/15/2016 9:24:37 AM)

Then you heard wrong...I have no disdain for Christians...I am one.  Further, I have no disdain for Southern Baptists, my wife was one for 35 years and her Parents for over 60 years.  They all left only when the SBC became doctrinally to rigid for their personal religious journey and belief. 

I know you are intellegent enought to know my my point was not about Southern Baptists but about how unrealistic it is to think we get anywhere asking a dedicated and radicalized Muslim Jihadist to volunteer he is Muslim when he knows doing so will keep him from entry to do his killing.  Unless he is dumber than a post, he will claim to be anything but a Muslim.  We need to vet everyone who enters this country, but it needs to be sophisticated enough to keep out the killers and killer recruiters, Muslim and otherwise, but not the family from Turkey who simply wants to go to Disneyland!!  I don't claim to know how to do it, but I do know know across the board refusals will do more harm than good in the long run. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Do we NEED muslims in the USA???
Date:	6/15/2016 9:31:46 AM

1/   Nobody is letting or advocating admitting hundreds of thousands of Muslim Immigrants into America! Try 30,000 after a 2 years vetting process.  Canada has already admitted 30,000.  Canada has 10% of our population!

2/   A few years ago a Muslim doctor who was born in The Palestinian territories and educated at Emory and Duke saved a colleagues life by performing a triple bypass!

3/  If you actually exist, you are really really stupid!

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	archidiot...
Date:	6/15/2016 10:59:54 AM

OK, let's use your number......Do we NEED 30,000 uneducated, welfare slugs that know one thing....how to breed in the US?

The last time I checked there is no shortage of very talented CV surgeons in the US, or ATL for that matter.

Your point is pointless.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/15/2016 1:01:42 PM

I think there may be a few things we can agree on, I hope.   1) we need to improve the immigration system with increased background screenings and follow up on people who over stay their Visas.   2) not all Muslims are Islamic extremists dedicated to the distruction of this country and 3) we need to carefully consider the unintended consequences of anything that we say or do.

There are 3.3 million US citizens who identify themselves as Muslim.   25% of that number are African-American Muslims, the rest are white, Arab, Indonesian, Persian, people who were born here from parents & grandparents that immigrated from all over the world.  I cannot believe that people don't recognize the potential damage that wholesale discrimination would do to US race relations... but I acknowledge that doing so fits neatly with many people's habitual suspicion of any non-white, non-christian group.

There are also an untold number of Muslim businessmen, diplomats, and tourists who would be prevented from entering the US in the case of a travel ban.   From that, I would expect large scale economic reprocussions.   Businesses would leave the US for friendlier governments, allies would stop supporting & cooperating with us, and a raft of economic retaliations would hit the US stock market.   No country in the free world screens people based on their religion from entering their borders.   

Trump's overall approach, and it's implicit endorsement by many voters (or at least a refusal to firmly reject his ideas) would begin with a travel ban, increased surveilance of Mosques and a national registry of Muslims.   I can imagine a Department of Homeland Security maintaining the registry, eavesdropping on the Mosques, secretly observing innocent Muslim families, and working hard to determine if any given individual was secretly a worshipper of Allah.   The IRS could be empowered to audit people based on their religion.   Local communities could be forgiven for not wanting Muslims to live there, and we could move to prevent Mosques from being built in our towns.

As Americans, we are prone to over-react.  You can see good examples of this on the forum all the time.   We are confident in our self-righteousness, and incredibly short-sighted.   For example, we invaded Iraq based on shoddy intelligence & poor judgement because we told ourselves that if we didn't take drastic action we would be inviting increased problems here at home.     By focusing on creating a war with the Islamic World, we are creating the problems we said we wanted to prevent.

   In the movies, the good guys always win and the US comes out on top every time.   What could possibly go wrong if we declare war on the world's third largest religion?

Name:	Buteye -	Reply
Subject:	Do we NEED muslims in the USA???\
Date:	6/15/2016 1:36:50 PM

With the existing world problems, why should the United States be so hell bent on absorbing the rest of the worlds problems? Our economy is so weak now that we can't even provide jobs for our own citizens. Allowing more people to come in just compounds our already existing problems, creatiing more people on welfare and adding more people to poverty. Yes, we are a caring country but the American people are fed up with helping those who don't give a rats a$$ abount America. It is pretty evident why Donald Trump is so popular in his bid for the Presidency.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Counterpoints
Date:	6/15/2016 8:09:21 PM

That's exactly why we need thorough background checks.  If they want to come here, they can wait.