| Name: |
Edge
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 10:40:04 AM
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I heard a rumor that APCO was going to sell off their lot leases on Lake Martin to another leasing company. I really did not understand what exactly the person meant by this or if APCO was going to give options for the lease tenants that currently have houses on these leased lots? Has anyone heard of this or can anyone shed any light on this topic?
Thanks, Edge
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 2:55:17 PM
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Haven`t heard anything about this. Most people are closed mouth about this subject. But I will tell you, anything on the lake that is a lease, weather original or sub(PLEASURE POINT), run like h`ell. APCO can do as they won`t. to.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 6:10:29 PM
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Candy Hayes manages the leasing program out of the Alabama Power Lake Management office in Clanton. Her number is (205) 755-4420. I suspect there is absolutely no truth to this rumor ... but that's just my opinon ....
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| Name: |
ridgeman
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 6:48:29 PM
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Yes that is why they are building houses on these leased lots for mid. 1 million $. so what was your bad experience with leased lots. pleasure point has been on the lake since the mid 1960. and al power is to renew the lease.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 6:56:17 PM
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Just don`t like the idea of building or buying a dwelling on property that I do not own. Anybody that would buy a house for 1 million, on leased property is a fool , and hope that Pleasure Point is able to renew their lease at a 1400% increase.
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| Name: |
shaker
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 8:19:23 PM
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Looks to me like misinformation is abound, again! yes, ala power can and will do whatever they please, but they are not unreasonable. have an uncle that leased a lot for years and it was offered to him for 30,000.00, which he bought, now it is worth around 600,000.00. what's so bad about that? as for pleasure point, yes they have been around, under the same family management since the 60's and the lease is going up $5.00 a month, 1400% is really stretching it a little wouldn't you say. maybe if information is needed, the person needing it should go the source and not rely on individuals that do not know what they are talking about, after all, being a 600,000.00 fool isn't too bad is it?
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/11/2006 9:50:12 PM
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Does anyone have a link for the regulations? What is the setback from the lake when you build?
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/11/2006 11:02:44 PM
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The thread about the Conference Center in Stillwater indicated a 30ft setback on the lake.
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| Name: |
weagle89
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/11/2006 11:25:00 PM
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For what it's worth, I agree with Jim 100%. I would never build on a piece of property that I didn't have the deed to.
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| Name: |
Blue Creeker
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| Subject: |
shaker, if he bought...
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:16:13 AM
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...that lot ofr 30k , then he was in the first batch that APCO sold off.
He was lucky...that's it...as were we who bought ours for 17k (now appraised over 400k). House and lot would go for lots more.
Now, you think someone can make that big a profit from buying a lot these days?
Oh, APCO will let you build on a leased lot, go ahead.
The they'll tell you they'll sell it to you....for 10 times what your uncle paid.
They are the smart ones.
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| Name: |
Blue Creeker
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| Subject: |
And, what's you uncle...
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:22:15 AM
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...and Pleasure Point got to do with one another?
So, if PP's lease is going up $5 a month for 45 years that's $2700....but what was the starting amount?
And again, what's that go to do with the 600k uncle's lot?
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| Name: |
Blue Creeker
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| Subject: |
edit: "your" uncle**
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Date:
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7/12/2006 1:18:48 AM
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**
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:46:28 AM
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No disrespect intended toward anyone, but I do not believe you or JIM are thoroughly knowledgeable on the subject. I think you need to acquire a copy of the APCO contract and read the contract. It states you will never loose your home to APCO unless you violate the contract. For any reason APCO terminates your lease contract without it being your fault then they must pay you current fair market value of the inprovements made on the leased property. Fair market value is established by a panel of appraisers; an appraiser representing APCO, an appraiser representing you and a third appraiser as an independent. I have never heard of this happening. You can ask APCO if they have ever taken a piece of leased property back without there being fault or the desire for such (turn back) by the leasee. I don't think it has ever happened. Once again, in my personal opinion APCO leased property is the second best way to get a place on Lake Martin. We all agree deeded property is the preferred but most expensive. My Brother won leases to three APCO lots, build new upscale cabins on all three and sold all with a profit. two of the places sold prior to construction being completed. The demand was that great. This all happened within the last three years. There are not that many fools out there.
Two months ago, I pointed out the article by Ron Morgan in "Lake Magazine" about Lake Martin leased property. Ron is a professional appraiser on Lake Martin. He is well respected by bankers, realtors, and contractors conducting business on Lake Martin. His article gives you a professional opinon on leased property. I suggest you and Jim read the APCO contract and Mr. Morgan's magazine article prior to rebutting this post. I will listen and respect an educated opinion on the subject.
I understand JIM had a sour experience sometime in the past. I do not know all the details, but it has left a bad taste in his mouth toward APCO leasing. He did say the lease rates went up, but that is explained in the contract to include when and how the escalations will be computed. It is done in a standard cost of living (economic) adjustment explained in the contract. JIM also had a bad experience with all his friends and family wanting to come enjoy the Lake at JIM's expense and labor. Now, I do not know whether JIM's experience was with APCO or some other middle person that may of caused his sour experiense. That maybe another telling point in this legacy.
APCO leasing and buiding or buying a APCO leased property maybe the only way some can get on the Lake with rising cost. The demand for deeded property far exceeds the supply. A cabin on an APCO leased property is far more appealing than a condo or apartmenent on the Lake.
There was and there still is a lot of APCO leased property of Lake Martin, and I have heard of no documented horror stories. I do not pay much attentions to "Wanna a Bees'' that cry because they do not have or can not afford Lake Martin property. Sounds more like an excuse vs. a reason. There are probably plenty of APCO leased property owners on the Forum who are enjoying Lake Martin Living as often as they can. Lets hear from them.
Show me the facts. I am not associated with Alabama Power Company, Ron Morgan, or and other enity on the Lake. My property is deeded and owned by my lender and I.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 8:53:32 AM
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FEB, I'm glad to see you weigh on this issue. Jim hasn't changed his opinion. This discussion has been held several times before and I'm not sure anyone has changed their minds. I live on a leased lot and am very happy with the arrangement. As already stated, APCO provides a valuable service to the public by providing an affordable way to enjoy the lake.
APCO cancelled the lease bid this summer at the very last moment (signs were already up), so their management could 'review' the whole program. There are around 250 lots still available for them to lease so hopefully they will continue their program of leasing around 30 new lots/year. I leased for $110/YEAR back in the 70's--now pay less than $300/mo so I think it's a good way to get on the lake.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 9:15:54 AM
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I don't remember it being that far... I think its 20 or 25 ft. Cant find the dang regulations on line - i know i've seen them....
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 9:19:55 AM
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You are right. The only time the numbers get weird is when you have to bid a large sum up front to get the lease. If you'll run a future value of that at say 30 years, the deal starts to sour and you are better off buying - that is if you ignore the intangibles.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 9:55:25 AM
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What do you call a 'large sum"? Remember APCO pays property taxes on the land. If you pay $300K for a purchased lot that's $24K/year in interest (8%), plus about $1,500/year in property taxes.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:03:24 AM
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Set back is 30 feet from the 490' line (full pool). I've heard that this also still applies to all property that once belonged to APCO, including those 1500 lots they sold off in the 80s and 90s.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:22:26 AM
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I beiieve Osms is correct on this point. There is another issue of major concern beyound the 30 ft set back. A new septic system has very stringent requirements as far as its set back and distance of feeder lines back from the Lake. This is unique to each lot and each planned house since the placement of the septic system and the size of the septic system will depend upon the size of lot, size of Lake House, placment on lot and several other variable to include the Perc of the soil or underlying stone beds of the individual lot. There are a few alternative courses to include pumping of the sewage up hill away from the Lake. This becomes rather expensive with a system I have hear is unreliable and an aggravation. This is a hear-say statement, and I could be incorrect about sewage pumping other than being more expensive. An example is a 5,000 sq. ft. Lake House with numerous bathrooms and that of a 2,000 sq. ft. cabin with less plumbing and a smaller foot print could change the entire scope of septic size and lay-out for tank and feeder lines. All of the above can directly affect your set-back from the Lake beyond the simplitic rule of 30 feet.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:26:25 AM
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In 1997 the sublease was 80 dollars a month, now it is 285 dollars a month(which is a lot more than 5$). Main lease to be renegociated in Jan. of 2007, although this lease has been the same. I believe there are 100 lots.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:33:54 AM
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Can you imagine how many older places are inviolation of these rules. I know of places that have 3 cabins on one tank, and the leach fields are a lot closer, in some cases 20 ft.
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| Name: |
FLee
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:56:45 AM
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I have heard that this only applies to land owned or formally owned by APCO. Lots that have been independently owned since the lake was formed are not subjected to this offset rule. Can't verify this, but have been told this for years by realtors.
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| Name: |
Lakeman
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 11:43:46 AM
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I would think that the septic system regs would apply to all shore line lots regardless of APCO or private deed.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 11:50:24 AM
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I think you are correct Lakeman. I think JIM is referring to some existing stuff. The kind of stuff you can not get away with on new construction.
It sounds to me like JIM's old lease was with someone other than APCO. Correct me if I am wrong JIM. Sounds like there may of been a middleman involved. Give us the details JIM so we don't tangle this with APCO leases.
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| Name: |
Lakeman
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:06:22 PM
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It sounds to me like Jim was involved with the Pleasure Point Park lease mess. When the park changed owners , as I understand it from a former owner, the new owners voided the old lease contracts and started uping the rent on all the lots and started charging all leasees for water. Anyway it started an exodus for some and it was quite nasty. I understand the lot leasors got the major raw deal.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:07:47 PM
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FEB, while your post has nothing to do with APCO lots, I can give you my experience. My septic system has the tank next to the house at the bottom of the hill and the field lines at the top of the hill (70' vertical rise). I use a separate 300 gal tank for the effluent pump chamber with the largest residential pump I could find. Have had no problems so far. Yes, at some point the pump will fail and the alarm will sound, but so far so good. A less desirable alternative is to pump raw sewage to the top of the hill where the septic tank and field lines are located. Problem with this method is the pumps are more prone to problems because they are pumping raw sewage and not just the effluent (water). By the way, each of the houses in The Ridge uses a raw sewage pump to pump up the hill to the street lines.
Expensive? I paid $5K a couple of years ago for the whole system installed. I can dig up the installer name if you like.
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| Name: |
Lakeman
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:09:03 PM
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Leasees/leasors? Anyway the new park owners put the screws to people who wewre leasing the lots.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:18:39 PM
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Bottom LIne: It was not APCO.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 12:30:42 PM
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Thank You Osms, I am good to go. (LOL). My property Perc was good and there was plenty of property to accomodate the field lines. I did sweat it a bit in the beginning when the builder said he would have to double check it all. It is something all new property owners and people who want to build need to consider.
Now the builder is checking with the County to see if my property was previously Alabama Power or some other source for the deeded lot. I guess if not Alabama Power in the beginning there are no restrictions. It probably will not matter much since I have already laid out the footprint I want. The angle and direction of the setting of your new Lake Home has to be the most crucial consideration to building.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Regulations
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Date:
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7/12/2006 1:14:12 PM
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This is a complicated set of circumstances. The Lease is with APCO, PP sub leases the lots that were meant to be camp sites.There were never intended to be doublewides moved in there. PP started to going up on the lot rent esculating 35.00 a mo. per year in 1999 or so, because the lease was going up in Jan. 2007. This was not fair to the people that subleased the lots. If the lot rent was going up to 300.00 a mo. in 2007 why esculate it in 1999,start in 2006 to 300 a mo. All the money that was paid to the leasee in antisipation of the lease in 2007 was to much. The preasent leasee has no obligation to renew the lease from APCO, and could walk away with a load of money. Add that up and see what it comes out to.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 2:03:00 PM
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I forgot about the taxes. That mitigates the effect of up-front money. I would think that $10-20K would significantly affect the number. let's see...where did I put the old HP calculator...
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 2:22:08 PM
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Average upfront money on the bid is in the $7-9K range; unless your're a certain Russell Lands realtor (Mickey Philips) who plopped down a total of $100K for 9 lots in last year's bid.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 2:25:52 PM
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It`s a blind bid.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 2:44:41 PM
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Osms and JIM are correct. I was involved in the bidding process years ago and never was able to win. There was one lot I bid seven grand on, but the winning bid was over twenty thou. That was an exception. You have to realize the lots are unimproved. Each lot is different and the rent plus the winning bid will depend upon the desirablility of the particular lot.
If you do not have a Lake Martin place, I would recommend giving it a shot. Make sure you examine the lots you want to bid on and consider all the cost for improvements to include driveway, power lines, septic system, well, boat docks, boat house, clearing of trees, sea wall and leveling of land on top of construction cost.
The bottom line, and I do mean bottom line cost for getting on Lake Martin these days with a cabin either there or constructed will easily exceed 1/2 million. That includes APCO rented, condo, and almost impossible for a deeded place with any decent water frontage or view.
It does not take many sq. ft. with current building cost to far exceed 1/2 mil.
I would say for a good place (improved and deeded) will be closer to the million mark. Anyone want to agree or disagree? I have been wrong before.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 4:19:40 PM
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no kidding.... sounds like a lot of these agents are working both sides of the street...
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| Name: |
Maverick
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 4:29:47 PM
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Ric:
Why do you think there are not any GOOD deals on the lake anymore, realtors get them, fix them up and then resell.
About 4 years ago I was looking for homes on the lake with a real estate agent and I would have to say about 15% to 20% I was being shown where realtor flips. Then I called my brother in law and asked him to keep a look out for me and finally found mine through a friend of a friend, before a realtor or real estate company could get their hands on it.
In order to find a good deal on the lake at least in the past 2 to 3 years you needed to be a realtor or have a friend who knew a friend that was selling at a decent price before somebody else gets it.
Today, most these deals are gone, small cabin with decent lot now $500k or more desending on all the ususal particulars, location, view, slope, acreage, etc etc.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 4:52:09 PM
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I think leasing really depends on your long term situation. If you plan to move from this area in 5 years, lease it and save a bunch of cash. If I was much older (say 68), I'd take a leased property for half what deeded ones cost since I won't care what the rent or property value is going to be in 20 years. I saw a great big lot last winter with a crappy cabin, crappy dock, and poor seawall for 240,000. If I was 68 I'd have bought it and spent another 100,000 and not looked back. But at 43, I just can't see how I'd be better off in 25 years.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 5:04:18 PM
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You are so wrong Sir or Madam. Go back five years from now or even two years from now and see what that property is worth. Possible as we speak you missed out on a great bargain. Could you afford it? Is that why you passed it up?
Where is it at? There maybe some on this Forum ready to purchase it right now.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 5:31:45 PM
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Sorry OSMS .. but you are getting your names confused. Mickey Phillips is the realtor with Russell Lands, but she didn't lease any lots last year. Tripp Phillips is a builder out of Montgomery, he is the one who spent $100,000 in bids last year. He already has three houses completed and one is already sold.
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 5:44:38 PM
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Just from what you have told us in this short post you should have jumped all over that deal, especially at your age. So if 100,000.00 is what you needed in your estimate to bring this property up to par you now have 340,000.00 invested. Look at the multiple listing and see what you can get on this lake for 340,000.00. not too much any more.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:04:35 PM
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you are a smart man JohnGalt. I guess I am looking in the mirror (LOL).
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:12:40 PM
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I actually like the oppotunities where we can put in the sweat equity. Enjoy the building of the boathouses, screened in porches and decks but have not mastered the finishwork. Wife is a master of the painting and decorating. I would rather find a place that is structurally sound yet needs updating and has no boathouse.
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:18:21 PM
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Talk about waving your flag.
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:25:38 PM
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Thanks for sugar coating it Jim. Didn't mean to wave my flag or come across that way.... not my intent.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:46:12 PM
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That is v ery interesting, because I was at the bid opening and the bidder was MS Philips and people at the opening said it was Mickey Philips and I assumed they knew what they were talking about. The houses are listed with Trinity Realty with a female agent named Philips. Could Tripp Philips possibly be kin to Mickey Philips?
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
JIM....
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:53:21 PM
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since you seem to have had a problem with the change of owners at PP, do you still feel the same way about the APCO leases. Doesn't appear APCO was the one that did you in.
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| Name: |
weagle89
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:57:35 PM
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I'll make my post short.... I don't have facts....just an opinion....peace and enjoy the lake!!!!
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
JIM....
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Date:
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7/12/2006 6:58:25 PM
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The jury is still out on that,will know in Jan. 2007.
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| Name: |
shaker
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| Subject: |
JIM....
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Date:
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7/12/2006 8:03:43 PM
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Jim: did you ever lease a cabin at pp? there was a law suit against several of the families that leased some of the cabins and pp won the suit, heard it was because the lease price went up and the families that were leasing refused to pay, so pp took them to court and won the suit and took over the cabins and resold them for just the amount owed on the lease, they went for 5000.00 to 8000.00 and have been sold several times for up to around 50,000.00. seems to be that the families that refused to pay did themselves in; not pp or apco. also, the same family still owns pp, just the daughter is running it. hope you have found another place to call home on the lake and will not let any black cloud dampen your enjoyment in paradise.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Well
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Date:
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7/12/2006 10:17:48 PM
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I just hope they make enough money now because NOTHING ever stays the same. It's a small real estate community and it will have a long memory. In fact I smell a recession coming....
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/13/2006 8:33:07 AM
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I bought a deeded cabin on a small lot for less than I would have paid to buy and fix up the leased one. The house is like new but the lot is very much inferior. However, once it is paid for all I will have to pay is the annual taxes, whereas with the leased lot the hundred plus a month rent was about to go to three hundred plus. I could not see myself watching it jump to a thousand a month when I reach old age. I prefer the security of no payments.
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| Name: |
boataholic
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| Subject: |
APCO Leases Question(s)?
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Date:
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7/13/2006 8:43:34 AM
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This was last fall, when you could still get a few cabins much less than 340. I dd not mean to give the impression it was a buy or not buy situation. It was a choice between buying crummy structures on great leased lot for 240 and fix up or buy a like new house with good view on small mediocre deeded lot that was underpriced at 50,000 more. I am too chicken to risk knowing if I could afford the lease payments when they renew in another 20-30 years so I took the deeded property.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
oooooh
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Date:
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7/13/2006 2:53:03 PM
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Tripp isn't related to Mickey .... and the realtor with Trinity that has his houses listed is his wife.
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