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Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Catherine / river-rat
Date:	1/2/2009 10:15:26 PM

Catherine, I have read with interest your contributions and opinions re Russell (Lands, Corp, Ben, CH, etc). I think you add a lot to this discussion, and you are not mean spirited about it. Sometimes, the posts seem to run in circles, and we are left to connect the dots. I would very much appreciate your listing ( 1. 2. 3. ) the items where Russell Lands is going astray, where they are making decisions that are not good for us. You mention the Lake City issue, and I can see that, but what other concerns do you have?

For perspective, I have owned since '96, permanent since '98, and I live next door to undeveloped Russell Land. I like lake cabins, not huge developments. I like peaceful quiet more than amenities, the lake is enough amenity for me. But at the same time I admire much of what Russell has done. What do you see as the issues?

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/3/2009 1:41:05 AM

on a messageboard. What many interpret as "mean-spirited" is actually sarcasm and my naturally smart@ssed" personality.

Its late, so I will answer your questions better later this weekend, but over the last 5-6 years Russell Lands has been rapidly abandoning the philosophies that made it successfull in its early years. In the first 30 years of its existence, customer service was the only thing that mattered. Now, it is the last concern. The sale is all that matters, and the relationships after that are viewed as a burden and not an asset.

One of the most concerning things to me is epitomized by the Lake City scam. Mark my words that they WILL get their City, and you and I will have NO SAY in its creation or its administration. We will wake up one day and the Outlook will tell us that we are in a new City, with new tax authorities, and there will be nothing we can do to change it without years of effort and millions of dollars. "Lake City" HAS to become a reality because Russell Lands HAS to get out of Alexander City. They see the tide of public percpetion turning against them, and it is demonstrated in the ever decreasing (though slightly) support and influence they give and receive to and from the City, and more noticeably, the citizens. I believe the Bass Pro and Lowes fiascos took a toll on Russell Lands' relationship with the new government in Alex City, and the Home Depot opening signaled that a change had occurred. It also was one of the very few things to happen in this town that Russell Lands couldn't control, and that is something they have never handled or reacted to well at all.

In the past several months, Russell Lands has made arrangements to leverage ALL of their property South of Hwy 63. The money they will borrow will be used to create Russell Crossroads, which is planned to encompass FAR MORE than just the 3-4 buildings that are there now. Russell Crossroads will be the beginning, and the heart of Lake City, with new roads stretching East and West from Pitchford Hollow and beyond, through Willow Point, through the Crossroads, and on into the Ridge, and Windermere. Hwy 63 will also be improved (at taxpayer cost in addition to Russell Lands investment) to run through the Crossroads as well (Lake City). "LAke City" will also include several upscale developments, similar to the Ridge but with larger, nicer houses. That is the vision of Lake City. It does not accomodate the cabins, and they all will be removed as each area is developed.

The vision of Lake City is based upon Aspen, Vail, and The Highlands. I sat in meetings where I heard firsthand the primaries involved stating that they wanted to create an elite community like those, and to "run out" those who couldn't afford it, to Logan Martin, Tallassee, Jordan, and other nearby, "less desireable" lakes. (Those quotes are accurate).

But now the economy is headed for depression, so a massive wrench has been thrown into the plan.

Anyway, this is getting long and it is late, so with that in mind, think about this until I can post more:

Why would they want to create their own city?

Do you think it is truly to monitor and control the aesthetic architectural composition of the properties? Remember, THEY already own all the property, and THEY will write all the covenants for those developments, so that obviously isn't it. Will having their own city help them sell more homes/lots? Nope. Some ammenities might, but not a city, with additional taxes and fees for water, sewer, and whatever else they put in.

Follow the money. You can only sell a piece of land that you own one time, but you can collect taxes and utilities on it forever, and you can raise them whenever you need to, IF you control the governing authority.

Tip of the iceberg. More to follow.

Name:	DaBurglar -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/3/2009 9:05:21 AM

Catherine,

I have a new respect for you. You are right on the money with this one. May I email you some information?

Burg

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	Please do.
Date:	1/3/2009 9:11:16 AM

Just use the email address listed in my profile.

And thank you!

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	Count me in!
Date:	1/3/2009 9:25:25 AM

Ok Catherine, you seem like a bright and well informed person. After reading your post about the intentions of Russell, however, I find myself pulling for them. I have NO PROBLEM with those plans and I hope like hell that you are right and it does indeed happen.

What is wrong with a new city? Why would we not want more upscale development? Bring on the retail! I went to Catherines Market for the first time this week and LOVE IT! My Lake experience has been enhanced because I do NOT have to bring the good steaks or seafood to the lake but can buy it at the lake and help the economy here. I truly could NOT be more excited about the future based on your dire predicitions. All of my friends on the Lake agree with me and I have many friends here and have been coming here my whole life...and no I don't care if taxes have to be a little higher or tax money goes into the roads. Look at the world and thats the way it goes. I am thankful to have the "Big Bad" corporation actually doing something that improves the lake in my opinion. The last thing we need is more "Bama Parks"...Go Russell Go!!!!

Name:	DJ -	Reply
Subject:	Count me in!
Date:	1/3/2009 10:05:30 AM

Well Bob my boy you must not keep up with things around the lake, there is in the 2013 re-license plan a very large "Public Recreation" use area that starts at Dare park and goes around the shoreline to the Smith Mountain area in Sandy Creek. Now if I remember correctly Bama Park, the original one as well as the current one started out as “Public Recreation” areas, Pleasure Point Park and the camper area in Real Island were too. So looks like there may be many more area’s that make you and others like you unhappy, we can all only hope it makes you so unhappy that you leave the Lake and forum forever.

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	Good for you Bob!
Date:	1/3/2009 10:27:43 AM

It is not news to me that many, in fact most, will support "the plan" because it has an immediate benefit to them personally. The initial environment is not the concern, it is what happens 10, 20, 30 years down the road. I know that won't affect you, which is why you haven't thought beyond the "here and now" or how it affects people other than you. The nouveau riche at Lake Lanier had the same attitude.

The way things are unfolding now is very devisive and deceptive. I contend that it is, at best, extremely naiive, or quite apathetic to believe that the intention of Lake City is that which we have been lead to believe. While I understand those who choose not to deal with the issue (for whatever reason) simply for the fact that it won't affect them or the Lake in their lifetime, I do not agree with that approach.

Had Benjamin Russell possessed that attitude, the lake would not exist as it does today, but it wouldn't be a total loss. Jordan, Logan Martin, and Lake Tallssee all are doing just fine, thank you, and there are people who love those places no less than many love Lake Martin.

Name:	Wakely -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/3/2009 12:47:16 PM

I too have been in many of those meetings, and I'm sure I sat closer to the head of the table than Catherine did. I probably was in many meetings that she was not, as well. And I can affirm that her quotes are accurate. In fact, sometimes when we talked about getting rid of a certain segment of lake dwellers, specific names were mentioned. I have seen some of those names mentioned right here in lakemartin.com. And one in particular I had a heavy hand in trying to oust. I was unsuccessful but he has much less of a voice and presence than he used to. Looking back, we were wrong I I regret my part in it, because it turns out that he was right all along. I didn't know that until I found myslef on the bad side of Russell.

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	Vocal Minority...
Date:	1/3/2009 3:36:48 PM

DJ and Catherine...thank you both for your replies. DJ, I most certainly am not "your boy" and I am certain you would not address me that way in person. The rest of your post is not worth a response since only a fool would think the economics of Lakefront Property would allow what you fear regarding the recreational areas...whatever...no need to argue...it won't happen.

As for Catherine, the problem with Lake Lanier is its proximity to a city of 6 million people and the fact that it serves as a water source and recreational playground for the ATL. Not an issue for LM. We have almost no retail development at the Lake and that is simply because of supply and demand...nothing more...nothing less. If Russell wants to try and be a pioneer here and bring in more development, I applaud them and most of the Lake Crowds would agree.

It choose not llive my life being paranoid of progress. I realize we all define "progress" differently but to worry about Russell tearing down old homes to build multi million dollars homes, attracting people that can afford them, and building the amenities that they want is hardly anything to be worried about...

Name:	jalcz -	Reply
Subject:	Vocal Minority...
Date:	1/3/2009 4:48:27 PM

"I realize we all define "progress" differently but to worry about Russell tearing down old homes to build multi million dollars homes, attracting people that can afford them, and building the amenities that they want is hardly anything to be worried about..."

Unless you're one of the people who have called called one of those old places "home" for most if not all of your life, and now they want you to move because you're not the "right kind of people." And those are the exact words they said to me, "we want the right kind of people living here from now on." And by "right kind of people" they meant "people with more money." Goodness of heart, community service, devotion to church, family and friends, none of that matters if you don't have as much money as they want you to have.

There is a special place if Hell for "good people" like that.

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	Vocal Minority...
Date:	1/3/2009 7:07:39 PM

J Man...I was NOT aware that the Evil Russell Empire had the power to force you out of your own home. In fact, I am pretty sure they do NOT have that power. Now if THEY own your property sorry bro but thats the way ot is...it is their RIGHT to do as they d@mn well please with THEIR freaking property. This entitlement mentality is revolting to me. You are not entitled to someone elses property...if they bought it 50 years ago and now their is a Higher and Best Use so be it...

If its YOURS there are no laws other than eminent domain that can take your property...its is not yours...get over it and buy your own d@mn place...

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Vocal Minority...
Date:	1/4/2009 10:12:02 AM

Please excuse Bob, he has shown many times in the past that he wants someone else to dictate how he should live his life. The “progress” that he does not fear is that which surrounds him with more of .. well; him. Those of us who want more freedoms do not fit in the lock step, bow towards Mecca ideology that comes with more Government. And no – a corporation has very little it can do to take YOUR property – a Government entity on the other hand…

Name:	ot -	Reply
Subject:	"your boy"
Date:	1/4/2009 10:46:10 AM

you don't liked to be called somebody's "boy"....but you think it is okay to refer to someone else as j man and bro. respect is earned not given! if you want it..show it to other posters as well. don't bash me, it's just something you should keep in mind.

Name:	longtimer -	Reply
Subject:	Vocal Minority...
Date:	1/4/2009 1:04:21 PM

In my apparently warped way of thinking, jalcz's experience points out that there is a difference between HAVING the right, and DOING what's right. No one would argue that RL has the right to do as they please with their own land, but to show such a complete and utter lack of respect for someone might not qualify as evil, but it's close enough in my book.

It is so far out there on the "can you believe they said that?" limb that I would question it, except that I have heard the same thing from others. Those who remember the story of why BAJ stopped writing for Lake MArtin Living will remember that he printed something he had gotten from one of the higher ups, and it used language as condescending as jalcz describes. I'll never forget that letter because it showed RL blindness by saying that the plan was to "tear down all of the small cabins and fish camps" and replace them with "large expensive homes" and had the audacity to say that one of the reasons that they would tear down "several" houses and replace them with "one" is so that "MORE people could enjoy the lake." I always wanted to hear their reasoning behind that but in my dealing with RL I quickly learned that they rarely explain, they just do, and that it doesn't matter because any explanation they give rarely makes sense.

Name:	Council Roc Doc -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/4/2009 1:50:58 PM

Always an interesting read Catherine. Thanks for your insight. We all know that corporations will always pay attention to their bottom line first and foremost. What environmental impact this particular endeavor of RL's is uncertain at this point, am I correct?

It would be interesting what an AGGRESSIVE purely environmental watchdog group could add to slow things down.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/4/2009 3:15:07 PM

This is one of those times when I can truly appreciate both sides of the argument. We are newcomers -- we bought our property and it's original cabin in 2001. The old cabin was not structually sound (and then a pine tree fell on it during a storm), so it would have to go and we debated long and hard whether we should live full time elsewhere and rebuild a modernized cabin or build a full time house. At this stage in our lives, we opted for a full time house. We didn't buy in a gated community -- not that I have anything against gated communities and the amenities that come with it.

Because I live here full time, I would love to see some upscale retail in the area. I love Catherine's market. And I believe that building upscale houses and upscale retail will go hand-in-hand. And some of the beauty and tranquility of the lake may be lost. There will be environmental issues with the development. And a lot of people that have been here a long time may feel pushed away. A nubmer of people here have told me how irked they were by the prices at which they were offered to buy their lots some years ago, but in the end they made out when the property values soared.

I personally hate to see the way people that own property around the lake and not around the lake clear cut their property for logging and don't replant. This causes a lack of habitat for birds and other creatures.
But, change is inevitable. Nothing stays like it was. I went through this in Virgina as well. And I met a lot of old timers there who were just as irked as some of the people here about development. But, it increases the tax bases, allowing for improvements in schools and also for public services such as day care and elder care, just to name two. And the people with lesser incomes benefit as much from this as those with huge incomes. And retail creates jobs for the community. It also brings in tourism dollars.

And I gather that some people don't want to see RL in charge of that development. But, from what I have seen, better comes out of planned development than unplanned development. In planned communities, property values are protected and you don't have someone dragging a rusty old trailer next to your newly renovated cabin or your new home. But, it is possible to change plans, using either community resources or legal resources. I know this, because our homeowners community did it twice in VA. And VA is notorious for ruling in favor of land owners when it comes to land use. So while you may not be able to stop it, people banded together can influence what happens.

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	It is hard to "hear" emphasis
Date:	1/4/2009 4:39:40 PM

VERY well said Tallulahhound! I agree with everything you wrote...you are too nice to directly confront the "I've got mine and now no one else should have their's crowd". Your points are all valid and there is nothing the Whiners will be able to do to stop it anyway. I, like you, revile the unplanned development that rapes the land and clearcuts the shoreline. I have been at the lake all my life and RL does better than almost anyone else at NOT completely destroying the land where they build. I know they are NOT perfect and I am not a cheer leader for them but they are NOT the EVIL empire many on here like to complain about.

I have covenants in my neighborhood and have always lived in place that have certain restrictions on their development to protect the greater good. Spare me the "freedom crap" for those in support of development anarchy. Bring on Lake City and all it will bring with it...I can't wait...may run for mayor if they don't just give the town to RL immediately :)

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	"your boy"
Date:	1/4/2009 4:41:38 PM

OT if so not understand the difference between calling someon "your boy" and "Bro" you are too old oro too much of a nerd to get it anyway. "Bro" is a term of friendliness in the world today...got it Bro!

Name:	UncleSam -	Reply
Subject:	You'd be surprised Bob
Date:	1/4/2009 5:08:40 PM

Friend of mine heard what he thought sounded like bulldozers in his back yard a few years back, he looked outside and sure enough a bulldozer was crossing his yard, knocking down everything in its path. He ran out and confronted the driver and wanted to know what the h#ll he thought he was doing. He was told that they were building a trail from Willow Point to the Ridge. His land happened to be between those two and they wanted the trail to run through where his property was, so they cut through. It was his land, HIS land not Russell's, yet they didn't care because it was in the way of what they wanted, so they did what they pleased without asking.

When my buddy confronted Mr. Ben about what had happened, he was told "You can take me to court if you want but you know that you can't beat me. So you can let me have what I want and stay on my good side, or lose to me in my court and get on my bad side. Your choice."

Pretty much soured my friend on anything Russell, can't say I blame him.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Catherine / river-rat
Date:	1/4/2009 6:08:29 PM

For all the posts above that put down any effort to plan the development of the lake, go take at look at the "freedom" exhibited with the wonderful developments like Karis Park and Crowne Point. These are examples of what freedom gets us on the lake. Rape and pillage the lake front, stuff as many cracker boxes as possible in the treeless landscape and then leave town with no sense of responsibility.

If you got a raw deal from the management of RL or any other company suck it up and move on. Who owns the cabins RL management talks about tearing down? My guess is RL owns them and probably even built them many years ago. I haven't seen them build a Karis Park and leave town yet.

Name:	ot -	Reply
Subject:	"your boy"
Date:	1/4/2009 6:27:02 PM

"OT if so not understand the difference between calling" .... hunh???

i can't understand what in the world that means! i'm 35 ...maybe old to you! ....i could be considered a nerd because i'm a successful business owner...and i'm a sister!!! or sis'ta to you ... so, Bob, my boy, explain. =)

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	Catherine / river-rat
Date:	1/4/2009 6:48:17 PM

amen to that--& you can add Water [or White] Oak development to that list on Hwy 50

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	bob, your a moron
Date:	1/4/2009 7:11:23 PM

Yes, I called you a name, I couldn't think of anything else to say about you. If you think that the recreation area that DJ spoke odf is NOT going to happen, then you are even more ignorant that I think you are. A trust me, I am most assuredly of the mind that you are grossly ignorant. Just a little reminder, this lake belongs to the people of Alabama, not Ben Russell, not Russell Lands, and not even APCO. When the FERC says to put in PUBLIC recreation, it happens. That is the VERY reason that DARE Park exists.

I am sure that in your world, as delusional as it must be, that you are "KING" and nobody would dare to speak to you or even about you with derision. But you see, there is boobs world and then there is reality.\

And BTW-- If you ask real nice I will provide you with a lnk to the map that shows the property swaps so you can go ahead and move to one of the gated developments that you love so much. God Forbid you should have too look at the public.

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	You are correct Doc.
Date:	1/4/2009 9:07:15 PM

In all honesty, NEW developments by Russell tend to adhere to most environmental regulations and guidelines. In saying that, I am referring only to what is legal, not "ethical development." That is left each individual to decide. Along those lines, I think they could certainly do better, but I also agree that they could certainly do wrose.

But as we know from the many dumpsites littering Russell Lands property, taking care of the environment is not very high on their list of priorities. I still shake my head in disbelief when I pass by the Trillium and Willow Point dumpsites. Most don't even know they are what they are, and of course Russell denies their existence. On the surface, they look as if they are just nice little praries or forest clearings. I saw what went in there,and have spoken to most who were charged with creating, filling, and covering them, so I never slow down when I pass by them.

Yes, an environmental group would have a field day with 4-5 areas within 10 miles of the Lands office (someone would become famous).

If they need coordinates, they can contact me here.

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	Very good advice Tallulah.
Date:	1/4/2009 9:16:00 PM

And that really is the purpose of my "campaign." Trust me when I say that changing the plan of Russell Lands will be MUCH harder here than it would be almost anywhere else with any other company. But it can be done, and it has to start with a group of concerned people united and comitted to making change.

I support Russell Lands right to develop their property as they wish, but I do NOT support their apparent belief that this lake belongs to them, and that their interest is always the best interest for the entire lake and the many communities it comprises. The "Lake City" scam is the ultimate revelation, and the ultimate slap in the face to those who live on and around the lake, but do not blindly support or endorse Russell Lands. The Company has done much good for the area, but most of it was years ago. As time goes on, the good they do comes with a heavier and heavier price, to the point now (in my opinion) that the work they do is outweighed by the cost to those it affects indirectly.

In a perfect world, both sides would sit down and work out a compromise.

Russell Lands doesn't compromise on any thing, with any one.

Not yet, at least.

Name:	Catherine -	Reply
Subject:	Bob, had you bothered to read
Date:	1/4/2009 9:22:30 PM

the proposal to create Lake City, you would see that there will be no elections, and that control is given at its creation to Russell Lands in perpetuity.

They define who it governs, and they define the tax base. They also dictate who governs the new city.

There is no "mayor" and there will be no "elections."

And it WILL come to be, in the middle of the night, when no one is looking and no one can stop it.

We are all deeply indebted to the courageous APCO employee who leaked this proposal last September. Had they not had the courage to risk their job by getting it "out there," the discussion we are having now would likely be moot. Legislation had already been drafted which included "Lake City" as so much pork. When the proposaal came to light, the embarrassment and backtracking began, but I assure you, the idea did not die.

Someone is biding their time.

Name:	Bob -	Reply
Subject:	Catherine / river-rat
Date:	1/4/2009 9:46:12 PM

Amen and Amen...you guys are dead on...any more "freedom" and this lake will suffer greatly. BTW...Catherine, I don't give a d@mn if they have a Mayor, have elections, or appoint a KING! If you Don't want to like in Lake City you will not have to...it's not going to be a prison.

RL has done more for LM than any other single entitiy...I am not Pro Developer...Karis Park is an abomination and there are others...it is PRECISELY becasuse I have seen other deveoplments that I support RL...

Name:	Lakey -	Reply
Subject:	Cat knows more than you think
Date:	1/4/2009 11:19:55 PM

They do not care about anything but making money, that is obvious from their lot prices eventhough they have cut their prices they are waaaaaaaay high. They rode the fast train when things were going good and thought the explosive market was because of thier great ...........

Then there was a bump in the road and they started cutting people like they were in a gang fight. They are top heavy and have more VP's than a bank. Ben is spending a lot of money for people to sit around in meetings and wait on things to turn. THey probably have one on the payroll to troll this forum.

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