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Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	600K New Gov't Jobs
Date:	1/6/2009 9:57:41 AM

Lets hope the Messiah's $1T economic recovery plan fails because he promises to create 600,000 new government jobs. Just as I predicted, rather than stimulating the economy by reducing the federal tax burden on productive, job creating citizens he wants to create another 600,000 Democrat voters gorging themselves on the government trough.

Government creates nothing. Government is that fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else. How about this novel idea in the current environment where corporations are reducing costs that the government gives it a try. How about reducing the size and scope of the Federal government, lowering taxes to stimulate investment and let our economic engine work?

Name:	lamont -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 10:40:02 AM

learn from history, are destined to repeat it. Does FDR come to mind? Sad, really sad.

Name:	mbk -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 11:44:16 AM

I have one question that I have not heard asked. Assuming that our economy does recover and the federal government makes some vail attempt to balance the budget, what happens to the 600K new federal employees? Reduction in Force - I doubt it. The last RIF that I remember was following the Viet Nam War and then it was only military personnel that were let go. T-hound this should be a good one for you.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 3:58:13 PM

What I read is that they were creating jobs in the FBI. 600K seems a bit high. I thought it was like 60K. The FBI has been saying for years that it is understaffed. And because of the kind of work they do, I don't think they can use a lot of contractors. There are two kinds of government jobs -- "exempt" and "non-exempt" . I was a .exempt employee and worked in an organization of -exempt employees which meant that when they needed to reduce the work force, there would be a RIF. The problem with a RIF, is that seniority and veterans status carries the day. So in a RIF, you end up losing your younger and less senior people. Additionally, RIFs are all about numbers, so generally, you lose your administrative staff and not your professional workforce. There is also something called "bumping rights" so if your job gets cut, you can "bump" someone who has less time or status than you. Disabled veterans are the last ones out the door.

For non-exempt employees, there are no retention rules. Most of the intelligence workforce are non-exempt. The reason for this has always been to allow them to hire the exact skills they need and let them go when they didn't. At the end of the Cold War, a lof of Russian intelligence specialists got let go. Almost all of the National Security Agency is non-exempt and I suspect that the FBI may be non-exempt. The problem with recruiting people for the FBI is that the requirements are quite stringent. The FBI hires lawyers and accountants, and professional law enforcement.

Regarding the creation of Gov't jobs. Our good friend Al Gore, came up with the idea to replace a lot of government people with contractors that could be fired when the work was no longer there and would save the government a bundle on overhead. Well, the truth is that you still pay the overhead, it just comes out of a different pot of money. There are some jobs that are "inherently governmental" that cannot be done by contractors. That includes anything that involves making a policy decision. So while a contractor can do the analysis, the government person has to sign off and make the final decision. One office I took over had 10 contactors, 5 of which no one knew what they did, but the previous Director had retained them because they were "good people" By the time I left, I whittled the number down to two, that were fully employed.

It's a myth that you can't fire people from the government. You can, but it is a cumbersome, time-consuming process that involves a lot of documentation. The manager has to do everything exactly right. Most people quit when they finally understand that they are on the track to get fired. I have never fired anyone, but I managed to make a few retire, and one I had his security clearance on the basis of something that he did. Without a security clearance he couldn't do his job and he resigned.

Probably way more than you wanted to know.

MM, I take exception to your characterization of people working for the government. It's simply not true. I'm not in favor of "big" government, but the.government is necessary. Let the government shut down, and you have no military and the structure that supports them, no social security, no treasury (no money).... You get the idea.
I'm not going to go into it here, but I would be happy to share the details of my government career and what I accomplished, even just in the last 10 years. I think you might be surprised.

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 4:47:11 PM

I agree with Tallulah .... some government jobs are vital. If we are adding FBI agents, regulators to oversee the financial markets, etc then I think it is good. I'm all for more border patrol agents, more CIA agents, more FDA inspectors so that we don't have bad food coming in from other countries. Those are jobs I can get behind.

Of course I don't want any more government workers just drawing a paycheck and not contributing anything.

And I agree, I don't like the way government workers have been categorized in other posts. I have a friend who works for the Alabama Department of Public Safety. He isn't a state trooper, but he is in a support position that allows the troopers to concentrate on their jobs. My friend is not living off the public trough. Likewise, I know people who work for the Highway Department, the Administrative office of Courts, etc. -- they are hard-working people supporting their families, and also aiding our state in conducting very necessary business.

My two cents.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Like Everything Else
Date:	1/6/2009 5:30:36 PM

There are good, conscientious, hard-working Government employees, and there are those who are dolts, dead wood, uncommitted, and just looking for a paycheck.

The same is true for Government contractors. Some are dedicated to being a force multiplier for their customers, while others just go through the motions.

I spent 22 years Active Duty Air Force and 19 years as a Government contractor, and it seems to me that the key in either case is the expectations placed on the employees by their organizations and supervisors. If the supervisor is a no-nonsense, get-the-job-done person, the employees will be more productive. If the supervisor is lax and not involved in the workers' day to day activities, the workers tend to adopt that same laissez-faire (sp?) attitude.

My company's motto is "delighting our customers", and we strive day-in and day-out to give them such good service that they will be delighted and ask us back for more. And it is equally committed to its employees. 19 years with the same company in Government contracting is very rare.

And while some contractors enjoy palatial surroundings and treat themselves well, our own corporate philosophy is to be "lean and mean" when it comes to overhead. In our case, we are definitely less expensive than our Government colleagues, and as a result, have a competitive edge when seeking new work.

On a brighter note, if you want to appreciate how productive Americans are across the board, go to another country - such as Italy - and you will see Government incompetence and unproductive workers like you wouldn't believe. They have at least six people doing the job of one, and refuse to implement automation - because if they get more efficient, there won't be a reason to keep them around. At the entry gate to the Italian Navy base we visit, there will be anywhere from five to eight guards and/or Carabinieri standing around shooting the "stuff",and we barely get the attention of one, maybe two.

We must be careful that we don't end up like the Italians and others of that ilk (and their 55% income tax and 20 % sales (value added) tax).

Off the rambling soap box now.....

Watch out for the weather tonight,

Nasreddin Hodja

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	Hard to Believe that
Date:	1/6/2009 7:24:54 PM

a government at any level is considering adding to the payroll when everyday mainstream American businesses are struggling to meet their bottom lines every day, keep their employees (mucho investment bucks), pay the rent and stay alive during a Recession?????
The business simply meets the bottom line or fails. My government simply changes the bottom line and passes on the penalty to the taxpayer for the next decade. Simple.

I was employed for 15 years by a public utility (monopoly) that was rendered a non-monopoly by law. Suddenly, this company was forced to meet a bottom line. They RIF'd and RIF'd (from the top, not the bottom) until most all employees were "Fully" employed. They also started competing for business like never before.

Surprise! Surprise! During the last 12 months of turmoil on the Market, their stock is steady as a rock.

My point? American Business knows how to deal with financial difficulty. Federal, State, and Local governments usually resort to throwing money at the problem, with predictable results. Poor.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 8:28:45 PM

As for the 600,000 new government jobs, Obama himself has said his economic recovery plan will create 3,000,000 new jobs of which 80% will be in the private sector. Y'all do the math.

I never said that all government employees fed at the government trough although it is absolutely certain that the size of the federal government is too large, not too small. Adding another 600,000 to the federal payroll only makes a bad situation worse because not one of those new federal employees will create anything of value. And the money to pay them will come from the taxpayer who actually creates real value, jobs, etc.

Now the economically illiterate might say that giving these 600,000 people a government job will give them money to spend and therefore stimulate the economy. The flaw in this thinking is the source of the money to pay them comes from the very same people who run businesses that do more than just create a paying position. So for every dollar the government job adds to the economy is done at the expense of every dollar available to private citizens. Nothing is added, only transferred from the productive to the unproductive. The productive manufacture products that can be sold, they provide a service to customers that allow them to create jobs (b2b), etc. All government jobs do is transfer money from productive taxpayers and pay it to bureacrats that make our lives more complicated and inefficient.

Anyone who thinks more government jobs is the answer to our economic ills is an economic illiterate.

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/6/2009 8:45:51 PM

Anyone who dares to disagree with Martini Man is illiterate.

MM - why don't you run for president and save us from ourselves?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	MM, you are wrong
Date:	1/6/2009 9:08:49 PM

You can't definitively say that new government employees will not create anything of value. They will not manufacture a product for sale, that is true. But, regulators and overseers are needed. I'm not sure what you think the majority of government people do, but they do alot. I spent hours and hours and hours with defense contractors who wanted to sell their technology and products overseas. And I spent hours figuring out how they could do just that, without furthering the high technology base of the Chinese and other countries. The technologies are very complex these days and countries don't just want to buy a widget, they want jobs and technology transfer. And when that UAE company wanted to take over port operations, my organization spent hours and hours with the US company involved, who was failing and needed to find a buyer that didn't pose a threat to national security. And that case was just the tip of the iceberg. And believe me, I didn't just have to understand the technology concerns, but also had to understand the business concerns.
When the Joint Strike Fighter aircraft was being co-developed with other countries, who do you think figured out what technologies could be manufactured overseas and then fought the political side of things? Do you have any idea how complex the technology of that aircraft is? And how cutting edge? And how many jobs are involved? And how many foreign countries would like to understand how that technolgy goes together so that they can apply it to their own failing industries and use it to compete with our companies? I have found that a lot of companies are very short sited about the ramifications of technology transfers to serve their immediate bottom line.
And when we have our troops fighting in another country, how do you think they get supplied? And who makes the decisions about whether very sensitive night vision technology (no, not what you can buy in Walmart) can be turned over to Iraqi troops who are fighting along side our soldiers? Our soldiers have access to technology that most people have no ideas about. If you had access to the level of thermal techology that our individual soldiers are using (which gives us a distinct advantage in night operations) you would be shocked. Yup, it's that good. And a number of US companies want to sell it to firefighters in China ( a valuable service you might believe) but one frought with the likelihood that the Chinese government will appropriate it for other purposes. So who do you think balances the national security with the needs of business with the needs for humanity? And when foreign companies decide to incorporate night vision onto their cars for sale to the general public, who do you think makes them put controls on who has access to those highly pilferable devices before they are installed? And who holds them accountable when they don't?

And who in industry deals with the Ciongolese soldier who is over here for training in miliary operations and in US style democracy, who is afraid to go home because the fighting has broken out again? Who decides if he can stay here or be sent home to die?

I would ask you if you consider these kinds of things worthless just because they don't produce a product for sale?

I'd be the last person to tell you that government can solve all the problems of this country or that it should try, or that more government means better solutions, but your views of a public service career are just not right.
And I'm only speaking from my small experience in one segment of our government.

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	MM, you are wrong
Date:	1/6/2009 9:17:14 PM

Nice post Tallulah.

And I thought of another rebuttal for MM.

Government doesn't produce anything? I have three words for you my friend.

Duct Tape. NASA

:)

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hard to Believe that
Date:	1/7/2009 6:23:42 AM

American business knows how to deal with financial difficulty???? how do you spell B-A-I-L-O-U-T and bankruptsy?? Or do you just hire someone to lobby your Congressman to keep them from regulating your industry?

So, you don't want them to add more FBI people? Write your Congressman. Tell him that you want the FBI functions turned over to private industry. Maybe the military too, after all we have contractors in Iraq.

Government is not a business -- never has been, never will be. And it can't be run like a business. People try, people fail, most recently Rumsfeld. Are there things I think should be changed? Absolutely. Will the Congress ever let them be changed -- not likely.

Name:	lamont -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/7/2009 8:22:34 AM

I think MM would make a good president. Why the vitriol Just-A-Guy? MM is just stating his opinion. Do you work for the government?

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hound....
Date:	1/7/2009 10:25:00 AM

You are right, and so is MM.

Your old job, and many others like it, are critical to national security and financial independence.

And adding more oversight can, in some instances be good.

But whether 60,000 or 600,000, where WILL these jobs be added? Will they be productive or will they just be a way to get someone a paycheck? If the former, it may be good. If the latter, we just delay the inevitable bankruptcy.

The way to solve the problem is to get the economic engine (small, medium, and large businesses) running. That way we start once again to produce real wealth. Adding some Government jobs to help keep an eye on things can be a part of that recovery as well.

What ever happened to the concept of taking raw materials, adding labor and technology, and producing something more valuable than the sum of its parts???

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	You people don't listen
Date:	1/7/2009 10:51:01 AM

I will say this for the third and final time so both Hound and justaguy will stop trying to defend government workers. I did not say all government workers don't work or don't make a contribution. Many do, including my wife that worked for EPA Region IV for nine years. What I am saying is that the size and scope of our Federal government is already too large and rather than increasing it as Obama is suggesting it should be decreased with a commensurate decrease in federal taxes.

As for duct tape, just to show how illiterate justaguy is, adhesive tape was invented in the 1920's by Richard Drew of 3M and duct tape (a derivative of adhesive tape) was invented by Johnson and Johnson Permacel Division in 1942. Just in case you were not familiar with them, these are both private companies that took their after tax earnings and invested in research and development so they could develop a product that the federal government could use. And by the way, NASA is simply a funding vehicle for the space program. The vast majority of the real work is done by private companies under contract to NASA. Didn't you pay attention during the Apollo 13 movie?!?!

As for the crack about disagreeing with me and illiteracy, I an open to correction with facts rather than liberal feel-good nonsense. Both GF and Hound have been willing to do that and when I am proven wrong I will admit it. What I cannot take is people saying things because they want to believe it is true regardless of reality. It is not about emotion, it is about the truth.

As my Dad used to say, it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/7/2009 10:54:28 AM

The vitriol is out of frustration because he wants things to be a certain way in the real world when it is just not. As Ronald Reagan aptly put it, "It's not that liberals are ignorant, it is just that so much of what they believe isn't true."

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Thanks for your support
Date:	1/7/2009 10:58:52 AM

Please send a tax deductible check to "MartiniMan for President Exploratory Committee". The funds will be used for my first committee meeting on the deck of my lake house involving the vigorous shaking of metal tubes containing ice, 3 parts vodka and one part vermouth. Running a campaign is thirsty work and I want the creative juices flowing......up to a point.

Actually, I would never run for political office because I don't want the pay cut.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Another thing to consider
Date:	1/7/2009 11:17:47 AM

November numbers. Note that while private non-farm payroll decreased by 533,000 jobs government grew by 7,000 jobs. That is sickening to one who pays as much in federal, state and local taxes as I do and knows that every penny spent by government is at the expense of the private individual. Why is it that the only time government gets smaller is when liberals cut the military? Maybe now you understand why I believe in limited government, not no government, but limited government focused on those activities that the Founding Fathers intended. And they didn't intend for entitlement programs, wasteful earmarks to buy votes, bailouts for private companies and on and on.

Total change in non-farm payroll = - 533,000

* Private Sector = - 540,000
o Natural Resources & Mining = + 4,000
o Construction = - 82,000
o Manufacturing = - 85,000
+ Durable goods = - 62,000
+ Non-durable goods = - 23,000
o Services = - 370,000
+ Wholesale Trade = - 25,200
+ Retail Trade = - 91,300
+ Transportation = - 31,500
+ Utilities = + 800
+ Information & Media = -19,000
+ Financial Svcs & Real Estate = - 32,000
+ Professional & Business Svcs = - 136,000
+ Education = + 9,800
+ Health Svcs = + 42,500
+ Leisure = - 76,000
* Government = +7,000

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hard to Believe that
Date:	1/7/2009 11:41:23 AM

Hound: I think you misunderstand the concept of "private companies know how to deal with downturns". What he really means is that absent some rationale, the marketplace is the better place to redress poor business practices and if left alone will usually do that. There is a credible role for government oversight and regulation but I would argue that it is significantly less than you believe it should be.

I have several thoughts about the corporations asking for bailout money and am curious your reaction:

First, I think you are forgetting who caused this mess in the first place. The credit meltdown was directly caused by government distortion of the credit markets through the Community Reinvestment Act, FANNIE and FREDDIE. Ignoring who in Congress caused the mess or who tried to fix it, the fact is that the current problems we have were caused by the government, obviously with private businesses participating in what has turned out to be a giant Ponzi scheme.

Second, I would not want the federal government as a business partner. A customer maybe, but not a part owner. AIG found this out when they were blasted in the media and by their government sugar daddies when they sent a group of the high producing salespeople on a resort trip. Those of us in business would look at that and say it is good business to keep your best producers happy.

Third, the U.S. has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (second only to Japan). As an example, U.S. oil companies alone paid $138,000,000,000 ($138 billion) in taxes to the federal government just in 2006!!!! That's just a handful of companies. Since the corporations have sent trillions of dollars to the federal government why should they not get some of that money back when the economy falters? Who do you want to give it to, people who don't pay federal taxes?

Finally, if we have learned anything over the last 50 years the government is not efficient or effective in its use of the fiscal resources. We have all heard the tales of $250 toilet seats, etc. but these only scratch the surface. Lets examine what results we have from LBJ's war on poverty....trillions spent and almost no improvement. Let's look at the results from federal funding of our education system.....let me rephrase that....failing education system......trillions of dollars and can anyone argue we are better off than 50 years ago when we led the world? I could go on and on but just a small example near and dear to my heart. When we sample a groundwater monitoring well for a private client we send one individual who is usually a technician. When we sample a groundwater monitoring well under a federal contract they require three people, the lowly technician, the QA officer and the chemist. Same product, same result, almost three times the cost. But they did use the low bidder! What a joke.

Name:	AUCATZ -	Reply
Subject:	600K New Gov't Jobs
Date:	1/7/2009 11:48:03 AM

The government better plan on selling stock because there appears to be no plan for US businesses and they are dropping jobs like flies.

I fail to understand how a party that thrives on the platform against the 'Big Bad Republican Government' (blah, blah, blah) is promoting this fiasco. While US manufacturing, etc. is failing right and left we are going to add all these government jobs?

Give me a break. BO is already saying we will be trillions in debt 'for many years', so I guess we will have 4 years under his reign, then the next set of candidates will campaign on bringing down the debt. Why you Dems think this is a better plan than helping US businesses is just beyond me.

And on a related note, several cities and governments in the area surrounding Lake Martin are having to cut their staff because of the economy. Guess we will all have to find a nice, cushy gov'ment job soon, huh?

Name:	AUCATZ -	Reply
Subject:	US Manufacturing
Date:	1/7/2009 11:51:34 AM

built the greatness of our economy. With the 'globalization' of CAFTA and NAFTA, assisted by the unions, we have lost that greatness. True, it wasn't all Democrats nor all Republicans, but it's a fact that when we lost our self-reliance, we lost a lot more strength nationally. Creating government jobs is a stop-gap, a band-aid on the leaking dam. Manufacturing jobs that can help build our economy as well as proving good jobs is much more important. After all, our nation was built on free enterprise, wasn't it?

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	Hard to Believe that
Date:	1/7/2009 12:07:42 PM

I spell Bailout/Bankrupsy like this:: "Subsidized Corruption" or maybe "Guaranteed Gambling".
How much of the $1T funding do you think will be applied to small to medium businesses trying to stay afloat?
Nope. The accountability for the Bailout money is GONE the minute the check is written, and my government has already been told "I don't have to tell you how I use it".
The new 60K or 600k jobs will go the same route, right down the same pipe with no accountability. Think Katrina FEMA $$$. No clue where it went.

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/7/2009 1:32:17 PM

I didn't mean to be vitriolic lamont. MM is stating his opinions, and I am stating mine. Why is that a problem?

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	Two words for you Guy
Date:	1/7/2009 1:37:23 PM

Peter Principle.

I am sure if you, and some of the others, Google it you will find it's relevant meaning. It is REALLY simple so I think even you can understand it. It is only one sentence long, but speaks volumes to those that will listen. But then again there is none so blind as he who will not see!!

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/7/2009 1:46:32 PM

MM .... I'm not trying to be vitriolic.

You obviously know more about duct tape than I do. That crack was my attempt to lighten the conversation.

You are right about my frustration though. I get frustrated when anyone, Dem or Repub, claims their version of truth as THE truth.

I've never said that you are not entitled to your opinion. But I guess on this board I am not entitled to mine. So I'll go back to trolling and keep my opinions to myself.

Name:	lamont -	Reply
Subject:	Those that don't.....
Date:	1/7/2009 2:04:05 PM

MM comes with facts to make his case. So does Hound, GF and others. Although I may disagree, i respect the fact that they come with discourse that I enjoy reading. You, on the other hand, rattle off BS about how everyone is illiterate if they disagree with MM. Sorry, I consider your diatribe childish.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	US Manufacturing
Date:	1/7/2009 2:06:48 PM

I agree about manufacturing although I think the U.S. may no longer be the best place for certain kinds of manufacturing, primarily due to our labor costs, regulatory constraints (environmental, human resources, insurance, etc.), excessive corporate taxation and easy access to certain raw materials. It is sad to say that my company has made way more money over the last 5 years shutting down manufacturing facilities than we have permitting new ones. The money is good but it is depressing work. I would much rather be involved in the siting, permitting and construction of new facilities but can you blame a multi-national for going elsewhere with these types of investments?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Opinions are fine
Date:	1/7/2009 2:29:41 PM

I share your frustration and I really do welcome your opinions but I think where we seem to differ is I try to provide a factual basis for my opinions and at times my facts have been wrong and there are plenty of people who are happy to hold my feet to the fire. But when you throw your 2 cents in it rarely comes with a factual basis or in my view doesn't adequately support your opinion. As I have said before my wife frequently reminds me that I am more interested in winning arguments than changing hearts and minds. My lack of charity is one of my greatest faults and I will try to be more circumspect. My request for you is to stop giving us your 2 cents and bring a nickel or quarter so we can exchange knowledge rather than drive-by comments contrary to a differing point. As I said above, both Hound and GF have schooled me......but only on rare occasion so they better not get cocky.

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Opinions are fine
Date:	1/7/2009 3:37:15 PM

MM ...... I'm sorry if my comments seem unsupported by facts. Maybe that's because I don't think any of us really have all the facts all the time. We are all creatures of where we get our information. I think you would agree with that because you have blasted liberals for listening to the liberal media.

I don't know why I got into this tit-for-tat with you. Maybe I am just having a bad week.

And Lamont ... If my posts have seemed childish to you, I apologize for that too.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	600K New Gov't Jobs
Date:	1/7/2009 3:39:24 PM

I would never pretend that I think that the government is well run. It's not. I've always wondered why, when they want to overhaul the government, they never ask the people that work for it how to do it because I can tell you, the people know where the cuts need to be made.

I'll give you an example. When I worked for the Army, I was involved in a very controversial co-production of the Apache helicopter by the Brits. Between me and the Secretary of the Army, there were 4 layers of ADMINISTRATIVE review, whose job was to figure out whether the memorandums and such were in the proper format, that I didn't have an extra space somewhere or some other administrivia. So on a given day, when the Secretary of the Army was having a meeting with a member of industry, either US or Brits and this was to be discussed, he would need the latest information about where we were in our negotiations and actions. I would have to write it, stamp it "draft" and handcarry it to his military assistant, because once I put it into the review chain, it would take it two weeks to reach him. And it didn't matter how many red tags I put on it to indicate it was urgent or how many times I explained that he was having the meeting that day. So in the end, he got what he needed and my butt was covered because I only gave his Military assistant a "draft" and not an official piece of paper.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	600K New Gov't Jobs
Date:	1/7/2009 6:29:11 PM

Hound:

You are exactly right, those that are there as employees really know where the waste is but have zero input into the fix. Thise decisions are made by career politicians or bureaucrats that are more interested in solidifying their prestige and power than having an efficiently run government.

But this is, has always been and will always be the nature of the beast and that is just one of many good reasons to limit the size and scope of the federal government.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Opinions are fine
Date:	1/7/2009 6:33:08 PM

I enjoy the back and forth because I find it intellectually stimulating and I have learned a lot from this forum. No sweat on the debate and as I said, I can be an a-hole at times. I really try but my darker side sometimes gets the better of me. My apologies.

Now that I have that off my chest let me search diligently for your most recent stupid post so I can destroy......um...wait a second....did I really fold that quickly?!?!?

Name:	JustAGuy -	Reply
Subject:	Opinions are fine
Date:	1/7/2009 7:13:06 PM

MM ... I have to say that I have learned one very important lesson.

The next time I post disagreeing with you, I will make sure I have the facts to back up my opinion.

But more likely I will just keep my mouth (posts) shut.

Take Care.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Well, I did my part
Date:	1/7/2009 7:55:58 PM

Two years ago I retired.
While I was working, in the previous two years, I caused 3 people who were dead wood to retire, and I got one off the rolls who had no ethics.
A new line for my resume: personally reduced the size of government. Maybe I should run for Congress. But I draw the line at having to write a pornographic piece for Playboy.

Name:	BoatsRFun -	Reply
Subject:	Well, I did my part
Date:	1/7/2009 9:55:18 PM

poor feb....lol ...............j/k

just funnin', peace

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	Well, I did my part
Date:	1/8/2009 6:58:22 AM

How is retired "off the payroll"? At least they were coming in to the office before you "got rid of them". Retiring somewone does NOT get them off the payroll, FIRING them does. And that my frineds is the difference between guvment and private sector. Peter Principle in action.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Well, I did my part
Date:	1/9/2009 8:48:34 AM

By saving the government costly litigation. History has shown that most people that get fired get a settlement after years of costly and time consuming litigation. They were entitled to a retirement check and they are getting it. Sometimes people need a nudge.

The unethicial guy was just slime. I had watched his antics for a while, and when I was in the position to do so, I had the intestinal fortitude to push him. He did not get any retirement since he resigned.

And I'm wondering Swim, since you are so critical of me, what is it exactly you do for a living? Do you run a business? I suspect not. I know you didn't have a career in the public service since you are so critical of that.
So what is it exactly that you are employed in? Others here have been pretty open about that.

Yeah, it's what I suspected. You are likely unemployed and taking some kind of disability.

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	You against the disabled?
Date:	1/9/2009 5:58:21 PM

I owe you no explanation or information. But I will tell you this, I DO NOT draw guvment disabillity check. HeII, I diidn't even qualify for a stimulus check. How I pay my bills is of no concern to you. Just rest assured that I make my mortgage every month. You and feb are going to believe whatever you want, and frankly my dear, I don't give a dam. You have even had opportunity to 'win' this house, but you won't put up, so why don't you shut up.

Actually you have had 2 opportunites to 'win' my house on a bet. The secong time you conceded I must be correct with the comment that I may be a gourmet chef that could make the Pigs meat taste as good as Cathy's. Well, I am for from gourmet or even chef, just a good ole boy that likes to eat, therefore, learned to cook.

But it is nice to know how you feel about folks with disabilities. As it turns out there are several folks on the forum with special needs children. Wonder how they feel about you now.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	No, Are you?
Date:	1/9/2009 10:08:34 PM

I'm not against people with disabilities. One of my very best friends is in a wheelchair, has been since she was 5 and had polio. My MIL is disabled. Nice try Swim.

Whether or not you pay your mortgage is of no interest to me. But, you are the one who has taken me on a number of time about the "disadvantages" of my public service career. I think a lot of people on this forum are very open and honest about what they do. It explains a lot about their perspective on many things, and it's a pretty natural question, given the discussions we've had here over the past months. Most people are not embarassed about what they do for a living because most people have a level of accomplishment and expertise that is an integral part to who they are. What's to hide when you are good at what you do?

But, what I really find interesting is your response. You dive into these discussions, spout opinions, criticize, yet when anyone asks you to identify the source of your information or even what you do for a living, you become aggressive and nasty. I guess I asked you a question you feel very defensive about. But if you are not willing to put up, then perhaps it is you who should shut up.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Winning your house?
Date:	1/9/2009 10:10:53 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Why would I want to win your house? I have a house. Or is that some sort of strange metaphor?

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	Winning your house?
Date:	1/10/2009 4:46:51 PM

You ticke me. Tehre are many here that know what I do, what I have done and haven't done. I just like to withhold info from you and feb becuase it seems to bother the two of you so. I think you are both control freaks that can't stand to be told no. Sorta like children. I will give yo credit though. You are very litterate and seem to have a modicum ov intelligence. So I guess it is true that oppisites attract. Ask your DH (dimwitted husband) about the house, I am sure he can explain.

I do notice that up above, once again when the source IS given, you choose to ignore the thread. What's up with that? Thats a rhetorical question BTW.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Didn't See Your Post
Date:	1/10/2009 9:50:04 PM

But I have now, and I stand publically corrected. Believe it or not, it's not the first time I've been wrong, been corrected and had to eat a big of crow. I find it's good for the soul.

I don't think Feb or I care a whit what you do. We haven't ever really had a conversation about you that I can recall. So if you feel some "control" over not being open on what you do, well, that's just fine with me.

I would like to correct your perception about something -- neither Feb or I are control freaks. If you knew us, which I might add, you don't, you'd find that both of us are pretty laid back. Both of us are guilty of playing the devil periodically, but neither of us do it with any real malice. I don't think either of us really cares that much, particularly since we retired. We're here to enjoy the lake, enjoy our neighbors and generally just be pleased with life. I enjoy a good back and forth in a discussion. If people disagree with me, it doesn't tick me off. Lots of time I learn a lot. That's why it's interesting to get other people's perspective and know what forms that perspective.

But if you are a trash collector, President and CEO of Russell Lands or don't work at all, I'd be the last person to judge you, even though you have chosen to judge me. I started my career at the bottom, went up through the ranks, and was fortunate to end up in a leadership position before I retired. Doesn't mean I was smarter or better, just the way it went. I worked hard. I was raised to believe that all work is honorable as long as one does it to the best of their ability and with integrity.

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	On the contrary
Date:	1/11/2009 1:07:15 PM

Your DH (I have no idea what you intend that to mean, but I do like my version) has spent MANY hours trying to find out things about me through the years. He has also written MANY posts disparaging anyone who dare come here to comment that doesn't 'own' porperty on the lake. He has offended many with his posts to this regard. He has exihibited his elitist attitude so many times that it is quite humorous to those of us who have witnessed it to see you defend him. He has through the years called me and others 'trailer trash', 'rednecks' and other things that he has no idea about. He has made it quite clear that he feels that if you are not a property owner, then your opinion has no merit. He seems to think that only property owners should be allowed to use his precious lake and even this forum. He has repeatedly posted here that I do not own property on the lake, and therefore should go away. He made one of these posts and stated that if he was wrong he would admit it. He was promptly replied to by a couple of members that they had been to my house, but that wasn't good enough for him. NO, the great mighty feb has to see documentaion. What a joke your poor DH is. And just for the record, there is a post made under your moniker that says you agree with him. Now maybe you didn't post it. Maybe he did using your moniker. I don't know and don't care, but for you to say you have never had a conversation about me really taints your credibillity. You seem to be intellectually honest, for the most part, but on this I don't beleive you, but I will not loose a minutes sleep over it either. I know, as others here do, what your husband is, and it aint pretty. He has a LOOONG history here. Mostly showing his ignorance and elitist attitude. Looking down on others seems to be his favorite pastime.

Now I see where you have only owned property here since 2001. I find that interesting since feb was coming here at least a year prior to that, making claims of ownership. I moved to the lake fulltime in June 2000, and was bashing your DH before that, although he used different names, one being Lamar. The other slips my mind right now.

As for what I do. Well first lets look at what you said about others being open with what they do. I know that Maverick is a CPA. I know that two others have a company that contracts to the govermnmet. I know what CATHOUSE does. But then again, everyone knows a CAT does whatever the heck it wants too....lol. I know that tallyman and WW both claim to be lawyers. I learned these from the forum. Other than that, I can't think of any others right now that I know what they do from the forum. Others have given vauge descriptions such as business owner etc. But that is pretty wide open. There are several others that I know what they do, where they live etc., but not from the forum. I learned from private emails and conversations. I also know that others lie about what they do when coming here. So be it. This is nothing more than entertainment to me.

Now since you asked so nicely I will bring you up to speed. I have spent most of my life in retail. A couple of times as a business owner, the rest as manager of both small mom and pop operations and large retail chains. I also know that your preciuos DH, along with others, seem to think of those in retail as 'second class citizens' not worthy of their esteemed company. It has provided me with a comfortable living. Allowed me to purchase my own lake house after spending my entire life on this lake. As a child we camped at Wind Creek. When I was in High School my Dad bought a place not that for from you. We kept it for several years after his death. In fact did not sell it till after I bought this place. Once I had my own place I lost interest in keeping that place up along with my lake house, my house in town, and a rental. It was just too much. I now only have this one and an interest with family members on some undeveloped properties on the lake.

Now I will say this. Before you start jumping in and defending your precious DH so vehemently, you need to read 10 years worth of old posts. He has repeatedly said things here that are indefensible, condescending, arrogant, and just plain stupid. It is simply that I am the only one outspken enough to say these things. Trust me, others agree with me. He has shown himself to be less than honorable. He has also passed judgment on me and others many times though the years. As for knowing you, well I might know more than you think. You see DH posted ALL his/your personal info here YEARS ago including name, address, even telephone number in VA. (you both can be Googled) Now he THINKS he knows things about me. I have spent years watching him chase shadows, and enjoyed it more than you can know. It has been my favorite pastime for years to toy with him. And just for the record, although I have thuroughly enjoyed bashing him with it throughout the years, I don't really think he is as racist as some of his old posts made him look. But that is NOT the case with his BFF. I even publicly defended him when a post he made was misconstrued and some folks took to calling him a child molester. Fun is fun, but there are lines you just don't cross. Of course when his BFF chose to make those same accusations at me becuse my 14yo stepson was displayed on my MySpace page he chose to sit silent. Honor? He has none in my eyes. I have also proven him to be a bald faced liar on several occasions. You see, because of me, he whined and complained to Bruce till Bruce programmed us an IGNORE button. Then your preciuos DH continuously claimed to have me on IGGY, yet his own posts proved he didn't. How you ask? So easy a Caveman could do it. But he is in pretty good company there. Others have made the same mistake. But why LIE about it? It only shows you to be less than honorable. If you lie about the little things that don't matter, what else will you lie about.

As for playing Devils Advocate.... those that know me, know that I might take a positoin I don't belive in just for the sake of a good argument. I have been told several times that I missed my calling, that I should have been a lawyer because of my 'debating' skills. Who knows, if I ever mangae to finish my MBA maybe I will try law school........ but then again I never did like slime so maybe not. J/K I love lawyers just as much as Shakespeare did.....lol.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	On the contrary
Date:	1/11/2009 7:23:12 PM

I am not going to defend Feb point by point, because frankly, in the 30 years we have been married, I have never known him to be racist (in spite fo the fact that he grew up in the time of the segregated South) nor elitist.
But, you seem to think you have a history with him so I'll leave you to it.

Feb no longer frequents this forum at all, not even to lurk. I'm the only family member who comes here now.

As far as googling me, do so as you see fit. I've googled myself and I know what is out there. My life is pretty much an open book having mostly been spent in public service. And given that I held a security clearance all those years, I've been investigated to the nth degree and all that information is, no doubt, in a big computer in the sky somewhere.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who have wonderful memories of growing up on the Lake. I see the kids that visit here and what a great time they have. I know if I had grown up here, I would have been all over the woods and the water.

Name:	Swimmer27 -	Reply
Subject:	On the contrary
Date:	1/11/2009 8:37:50 PM

There is no defending some of his past behavoir here, nor mine. But as I said, it was just entertainment to me. I never took it serious, but he sure did. Always with the threats to sue for 'defamation'... haha. You would think with a brother who is an attorney, he should/could have known better. But it is neither here nor there. The posts showing his attitude toward 'non owners' are still there. I think you might be shocked to read some of them if things are as you say they are. But then again, that is why some folks come to forums like this, so their alter ego can come out and play too. That is fine, but then don't turn around and try to deny what you have said and done. I haven't Googled either of you in years. I have no desire to now. The point is he was foolish to psot so much personal info, but apparently no harm came from it. He really dodged a bullet. Back then there were probably only about a dozen or so of us that even knew of this forum. But I also remember the context in which it was done. It was after child abuse nonsense.. I am sure he would be surprised how little I have actually thought about him through the years. Frankly, I am glad he and his BFF are both staying away these days. If he chooses to come back, I will lay off of the feb bashing, unless he starts to campaign against me again.

As for him being a racist, I don't beleive it either. As I said, I have enjoyed taunting him with it through the years. The one post he made that got him labled as such was in regards to native Americans, not blacks or hispanic. Now his BFF is a different story. He made several very racist posts way back when reagarding blacks and athletics. The two of them have for years tried to get me banned for life by Bruce and have even rallied the majority of the forum into a "cyber lynch mob" against me, with a modicum of success. Yet I am here. Now elitist is a different story. I have never known an elitist that actually saw themselves as one. But that is human nature I guess. Not many of us recognize our own faults.

I do enjoy most of your posts. You fall more left of center than I think you realize, but at heart I think we would both be more centrist than at either end of the spectrum. I am certainly not a 'right wing' Republican. I am a social liberal, but a fiscal conseravtive. I don't care who you date, marry, sleep with, hang out with or choose to follow, just don't TAKE MY MONEY TO DO IT WITH!! I actually am a Libitarian, but untill that party, or one close to it, can get its act together I will continue to support mostly republicans for public office. But as I have said many times before, I love liberals. The world needs liberals. I just don't want them in charge of anything.

Name:	muddauber -	Reply
Subject:	US Manufacturing
Date:	1/18/2009 8:22:06 AM

No we can't blame them. But it is manufacturing that creates wealth. Acquiring the raw materials, processing em, transporting, making something with that, transporting again, assembling, transporting, etc. Lots more people employed, more companies involved. Taxes on all of that.
Service economy. Labor and a few parts. Fewer people, fewer companies, less taxes raised at the local, state, fed level. Massive negative balance of payments in foreign exchange.
Yes, companies save monies. Our country loses. I wonder if this were factored out, if subsidies to keep manufacturing here would not actually be a plus on the balance sheet. I know that is supposedly illegal, but still I gotta wonder what if?

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