| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 8:27:03 AM
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The political discussions on the forum do highlight the extremes on each sides, one camp blaming the other and vice-versa. Let's try something new: Let's own up and admit what we see wrong with our OWN party. Surely, each is to blame, but what do you see that your fav party has done wrong to contribute to the disaster we are in? Any takers?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Already Did - nt
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Date:
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3/13/2009 8:37:48 AM
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 10:18:11 AM
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sounds reasonable, I just did.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 11:29:08 AM
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Good idea........probably will be a one way discussion.........
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 4:03:32 PM
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I'm actually and indep. who votes for the person, not the party. Since the disasterous intervention in Iraq when the real enemy was in afgan. and Pakistan, I have leaned to the Dems. That being said: Freddie/Fannie mess can have much of the blame placed on Rep. Barney Frank (D MA) while the financial melt down is certainly much the result of the complete deregulation pushed through by Sen. Phil Gramm (R TX). Next?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 4:13:29 PM
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I don't like Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid and I think they contribute to the irresponsibilty of the Democrats in the Congress. I also think it is irresponsible to say that there is "opportunity in crisis".
I want health care fixed and I think the country needs education reform and spending on the infrastructure, but I don't think they need to take all of these on at once, even though some of it is being billed as part of the stimulus. I'm glad we're getting out of Iraq and putting more troops in Afghanistan. And I want better benefits for the young veterans that are coming home and need jobs, medical care and community support.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 7:50:47 PM
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Architect,
As a combat veteran of 2 recent wars and a daughter on active duty defending your right to say this stuff, I find your description of the Iraq war, offensive.. Forget the intelllegence leading up to the war, just recall that this evil regime poisioned 8000 Kurds.. men, women and children .. I'm glad he, and the evil he represented, is dead ..
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 8:28:31 PM
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Alahusker and his daughter deserve my thanks and all American's thanks for their service to our nation. Indeed this country will be at the end of our great experiment if we ever reach the point that some of our best and brighest are unwilling to sacrifice for the common good. I'm also sorry you take offense at my take on Iraq. True, we were told that Saddam had WMD, was plotting with Osama, was involved in 9-11 and in general was a direct, imminent, and immediate threat to to you and me! We now know that the intelligence estimates cut both ways in contrast to what we were all being told as fact. We now know that some administration members tried to slow down the rush to war but were rebuffed by the V.P. and his inner circle. We now know the intell was cooked and cherry picked to justify a questionable war which took our concentration off the real culprets. Of course Saddam was a brutal killer who should have been taken down. It is tragic that that it required 35000 brave Americans to die or be maimed along with tens upon tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 8:49:16 PM
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I think you can oppose the Iraq war without offending members of the military. It's not the military who decided to invade, and they sign up to execute military operations directed by the Commander in Chief. Our military do as directed and they do a da*n fine job -- but they don't publically question the validity of the mission.
That's why I feel so strongly about increasing veterans benefits.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 9:31:15 PM
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AMEN!!!
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/13/2009 10:01:34 PM
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My biggest gripe is that many Republican's, including President Bush, abandoned conservative principals. Some examples. The Prescription Drug Benefit program, earmarks and out of control spending, unwillingness to eliminate federal programs like the education department/cpb, hypocrites that espoused social conservativism while engaging in immoral acts (adultery, homosexuality, etc.), inability to reform social security while controlling congress and the white house, to name a few.
What is even sadder is all these actions would make them welcome and celebrated in the Democrat party. That is why I still vote for Republicans as they represent the lesser of two evils.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/13/2009 10:38:29 PM
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A well considered and respectful response, Architect, and I thank you for it..
We have fundamental disagreements on the gulf wars.
I still have dreams about standing before my men after I had a B-52 crew died on a combat mission during the first Gulf war. After calling wives and parents, I offered my opinion on causes of their ultimate sacrifice to a somber assembly of fellow of crewmembers in a memorial days later.. I still hold those convictions..
So when it's challenged, forgive me.. It's real personal..
Regards,
Burke
Warm
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/14/2009 7:54:51 AM
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So your only problem with the Republicans is that they aren't conservative enough. That's not likely to sit well with the vast majority of AMERICANS who think the Republicans are too conservative and the Democrats are too liberal. Most of us are somewhere in between and are distressed that neither party seems to understand where we stand.
PS: I assume you whould like to win people to your side. Well one of the worst ways to win over a democratic leaner is to use a childish Republican playbook trick and refer to the "Democrat" party.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
A starting point??
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Date:
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3/14/2009 8:23:26 AM
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1. The Unites States is exceptional.
2. The constitution should be interperted, not legislated.
3. Smaller government is preferable to big government.
4. Captialism works better than socialism.
5. Indivuals should have the opportunity to seek success, as
opposed to relying on others.
6. Fiscal responsibility is a good thing.
7. Less taxiation is desirable.
More to follow
Do we agree so far guys, Architect? Thinking Hound might agree with these principles, Hound?
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/14/2009 8:38:04 AM
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I don't think that the vast majority of americans think that the republicans are too conservative. I think that they feel they don't practice what they preach. The conservative party has left it's core principles in order to attract the left and has lost it's identity. When you try to please everyone you are going to give up some of your principles.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Wrong assertions
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:11:05 AM
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Architect: you need to be bring facts and not baseless assertions to the forum because you will be challenged. You have to get your news from somewhere other than the daily kos or huffington post, otherwise you will be skewered for making false statements. A number of liberal posters have long since gone away because every time they made a baseless, factually incorrect statement to support their failed ideology they were corrected with the truth. They simply could not compete in the arena of ideas.
For example, and I quote you, "We now know the intell was cooked and cherry picked to justify a questionable war which took our concentration off the real culprets."
This is a false statement. The Senate Intelligence Committee studied in great detail the lead up to the war and concluded that it was a monumental intelligence failure. Some of their conclusions that directly refute your baseless allegation:
"The Committee did not find any evidence that Administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's WMD capabilities."
"The Committee found no evidence that the Vice Presiden't visits to the CIA were attempts to pressure analysts, were perceived as intended to pressure analysts by those who participated in the briefings on Iraq's WMD programs, or did pressure analysts to change their assessments."
"The Committee found none of the analysts or other people interviewed by the Committee said that they were pressured to change their conclusions related to Iraq's links to terrorism."
This report was signed off by both Democrat and Republican members and the investigation was lead by a bipartisan committee. I could also take exception to some of your other comments with a factual rebuttal but I have already demonstrated that your are either ill informed (which means you only get your information from the mainstream media or netroots) or so partisan that any truth that doesn't comport with your ideology must be ignored.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:20:54 AM
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alahusker....100% agreement on 1,2,4,5,7. But for 3....Big government that does not get in bed with me may be needed in times of crisis, my desire is for good, honest, open and efficient gov. be it large or small and be it nat'l or local. The same goes for 6.... taxes. To listen to some hard right folks they think lower taxes will cure cancer, Taxes are a unfortunate part of life. Smaller taxes are good but may not cut it in times of crisis.
Jgalt....If you don't think the vast majority of Americans are less conservative than today's Republican party, you must not be aware ot the results of the last 2 elections! If tht Republicans keep making the tent smaller and smaller you will have an ideologically pure group that is able to hold your convention in a coffin! Do you really want to self distruct?
Please give us "middle of the roaders" a chance to vote for an occasional Republican again. I recommend you read Mickey Edwards' commentaries.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:23:20 AM
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Look, you may not like my answer but it is what it is. And I forgot to mention their support of illegal immigration as another issue.
And you are wrong about what the majority of Americans believe. Despite the election of the Messiah, America is still a center-right country as is demonstrated in poll after poll on both social and fiscal issues. Is there disagreement and are some people fiscally conservative but socially liberal or vice versa? Of course. But on the whole the majority of Americans hold center right beliefs.
And finally, don't lecture me about being childish, aren't you the one whose first post called all of us right wing Alabama nut jobs?!?!?! I am used to liberal hypocrisy but it didn't take you too long to show your true colors. Besides, a lot of us live in other states and just have 2nd homes on Lake Martin. So I would be better charactrized as a Georgia right wing nut job. Hound is a left wing Alabama, former DC-insider nut job. Others are squishy, in the middle, pick your state nut jobs.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Here's my list
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:28:22 AM
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I am from GA and I am, along with most Americans, in the "squishy" and frankly find it a pretty good place to be.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Good for you
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:32:32 AM
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Although my observation of many self professed "moderates" are really liberals in disguise as they just dont't want to admit they belong to that ideology. They often don't stand for anything or look to the prevailing sentiment and just follow along. It would be interesting to hear what your core beliefs are as a middle of the roader. I suspect they are mostly left wing but who knows.
As for me, my beliefs are based on facts, an understanding of history and not emotion or good intent. If those fall under the banner of conservative so be it. I believe what is right and true and am willing to be called whatever for those beliefs.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:36:05 AM
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Most Americans are not middle of the road. Around 30% are liberal, 30% are conservative and the remaining 40% hold both conservative and liberal views and can be swayed in one direction or the other to vote one way or the other. So a true statement is that a plurality of Americans are not professed conservatives or liberals. Unfortunately you hold the swing vote and sometimes can be duped into mistakes like the vote for Obama. The buyers remorse is only just beginning.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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3/14/2009 10:36:37 AM
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Looks like GF is back with a different alias.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Now Now MrHodja
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Date:
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3/14/2009 1:25:57 PM
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To ease your Right Wing mind, I assure you that I am who I am and not someone who I am not. Cheers my good friend but I cannot walk a straight line let alone draw one as I am sure Architect is trained to do. So, I walk the talk as Gonefishin having voted for President Obama.
Now that Palin's daughter and her fiance have split, a single mom raising her child and living at home sounds so "liberal" leaning. I am sure the RIGHT will justify it as an example of love.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Now Now MrHodja
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Date:
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3/14/2009 2:48:38 PM
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You need to go to a shrink.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Explanation
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:01:03 PM
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OK, the first response was knee-jerk (although not necessarily in error).
Why haven't we seen you out here gloating over how well your Chosen One is doing? All you have ever done in the past is criticize the right, and make wild claims that you did not substantiate at all. So your response to your Chosen One's horrid performance so far is to criticize a young lady in a time of stress and duress. That, my "friend", is sick. If that is the best you can come up with then go back to your architect alias, or if indeed there are two of your ilk out there, just crawl back in your hole.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:11:52 PM
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My point is that this nation has had a pretty good run with governance which often moves right or left but in general never veers to the extremes of either. In recent years that has changed at least in the Congress. The Republicans have become extreme on the right and the Democrats extreme left. Fortunately to date neither has had enough of a majority to work there will. If either ever does it will be the end of this nation as we know it. I don't like Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore. I don't want my tax money being used to provide for a thugish worthless bum on the street any more than a Wall Street hot shot and I don't want my tax money being used to promote a fundmentalist religious program in the halls of scientific study or in my bedroom. I believe most citizens and hopefully most voters would agree.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
The problem is
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:35:38 PM
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Senior Officials generally do not overtly tell people what to find or what conclusion to draw, but none the less, the message gets conveyed in not so many words. A vague comment in a staff meeting get interpreted by the staff and the message gets passed down. But, you will never get an overt directive or told directly what they want to see.
And analysts are not going to admit they felt coerced for two reasons --
one is because they want to keep their jobs.
the other is that it leads to more direct questions about just exactly what was said and by whom, and how did you draw there inference. People are very, very careful about what they say to Congressional investigative committees, the IG, or any other group that looks into these matters.
I can't back this us by pointing to a "fact" but I can tell you I have BTDT. Never forget that sh*t rolls downhill. Ultimately, even Ollie North found that out.
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I think that the MAJORITY of Americans DO believe that the Republican Party is too conservative and panders to the Christian Right Wing. Now, in the South, people may not believe that the Republicans are too conservative because so many Southerners are the Christian Right Wing.
I voted Republican for a long, long time. I even voted for Bush in 04 because I thought Kerry was a ridiculous choice. But, while I can appreciate fiscal conservatism, I don't want the government legislating my moral choices. Those are between me and God.
The Republicans have lost their way because they are so far to the right of what most Americans believe. I think I a lot of Americans do believe that we should help those less fortunate than ourselves -- not to the extent that the left wing wants to do it, but somewhere in the middle. I think the majority of Americans are comfortable in the middle. And right now they see Republicans as elitists who are trying to make things better for the wealthy and the heck with everyone else.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
No I'm Not
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:52:40 PM
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A left wing Alabama nut job. Nor am I a DC-insider nut job.
That's about like a Walnut calling a pecan a "nut job".
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
The problem is
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:57:22 PM
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Hound, I am simply responding to the allegations made by architect. You can have all your theories about whether there was influence on the intelligence committee but I find it inconceivable to believe that of the hundreds of analysts they interviewed that all were cowed into lying about pressure. I don't doubt that there may have been subtle influences but that doesn't mean what the netroots keep saying. The fact is, Bush relied on the very same intelligence as the SIC and our allies. It was wrong.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You are Right.
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Date:
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3/14/2009 3:59:26 PM
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And it isn't that most of us mind others who want to follow their Christian Right Wing beliefs as a way of life -- just please don't impose them on the rest of us and insist we live your way and believe what you believe.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
No I'm Not
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Date:
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3/14/2009 4:04:47 PM
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Hound, I was obviously tongue in cheek responding to architect calling all of us, including you, right wing nut jobs. You are not a nut job and neither is anyone else on the forum as far as I can tell. Having said that am I the walnut or the pecan?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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3/14/2009 4:10:29 PM
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Maybe I don't understand what you mean by extreme right wing. I would counter that the reason Republicans were booted from control of Congress primarily because they abandoned conservative principals as envisioned by our founding fathers. Anyone who classifies Bush as a right wing extremist wasn't paying attention for the preceding 8 years. I could recount all the ways that is true. I know most detractors fear Bush's religious beliefs but that is so overwrought.
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You can read and interpret intelligence in so many ways. You can rely on single reportings and call it the truth -- and it is for that instance. You can send that intelligence piece forward as the "truth" and over time you can create a mosiac that says what you can interpret as you wish. But if you chose other pieces, you could make an entirely different mosiac. It's a lot more art than it is a science.
My thing is this -- Colin Powell stated in his book and was also reported by Bob Woodward in hs book that Powell read the intelligence and found it lacking. And the night before he gave the report to the UN, they redid the briefing until he could feel less uneasy about it because he never felt confident about it. And in his various military jobs over his career, I have a feeling he read quite a bit of intelligence.
You are really hanging your hat on someting that is almost all shades of gray. And all the analysts didn't have to agree, but may have concurred in the reports in the absence of something else more solid. You know that Doug Feith started his own little "intelligence" cell out of his office (it was headed up by one of my former colleagues (Mike Maloof) because he didn't think that the CIA/DIA was coming up with the right intelligence to support an invasion of Iraq. I believe he talks about this in his (Feith's) book. Don't you think that if there was a strong case to be made for WMD or chemical weapons or terrorist training cells the Commander of CENTCOM would have been making the case to the President to invade Iraq? But, he wasn't. And he likely saw the same intelligence.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
No I'm Not
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Date:
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3/14/2009 4:19:51 PM
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Your choice :-)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
By the way
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Date:
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3/14/2009 4:31:16 PM
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I didn't fear Bush's religious beliefs, per se, but he figured out that people with some very narrow views of how others should live their lives, would provide financial support if he embraced their views. I have no idea what GWB actually believes in terms of religion.
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| Name: |
JohnGalt
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| Subject: |
Whoa!
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Date:
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3/14/2009 8:45:16 PM
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When I spoke of conservatism I am speaking of fiscal conservatism, lower(simple)tax rates, limited govt. regulation of business, smaller national govt. I feel like the Republicans have slowly let these principles slip away and have lost people that believe in these principles. I also believe in more personal responsibility and rewarding accomplishment.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I am partial to pecan pie
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Date:
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3/14/2009 9:41:18 PM
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Come clean
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Date:
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3/15/2009 2:19:29 PM
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OK, my job is done here. In this thread we found something we can ALL agree on.....Pecan pie is good. We have common ground.
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