| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/23/2009 10:40:16 PM
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Periodically, I find that I have to really think about how I really feel about an issue. And tonight for some reason (too much rain?) I have been thinking about the Gitmo issue. I think in the distance of almost 8 years after 9/11, we've finally reached the point where we can intellectualize and overthink the issue.
And I had to remind myself how I really felt on 9/11 and the days that followed. I wasn't thinking then about terrorist rights. I was thinking that I wanted to hear our President say that we were going to take a lot of very, very large bombs and drop them on those who created 9/11. I wasn't thinking about collateral damage. I wanted the President to level Afghanistan, the Taliban and those upper regions of Pakistan where the bad guys live. I didn't care if they suffered, because I had watched the towers fall in NY on TV, and watched the smoke rise from the Pentagon. And everytime I went to the Pentagon and smelled that awful smell of jet fuel and death. And in the times that followed where terrorists took Western civilians (including Daniel Pearl) as hostages and beheaded them and put the pictures on the internet == well, I thought we should behead them too. An eye for an eye.
And I am remembering that on 9/11 and in the days that followed the Arabs that danced in the street at our tragedy. And I was have happily dropped a bomb on them too.
I want to be intellectually honest with myself. I don't want to rationalize that anything is "different" now. They would still kill us.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/23/2009 11:47:12 PM
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You are right, they haven't changed from those days immediately after 9-11. I pray to God that we have.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
You are a disgrace
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Date:
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5/24/2009 7:43:23 AM
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What, we are supposed to forget we were attacked? You sicken me. How do you libtards live with yourself?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Thanks
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Date:
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5/24/2009 11:19:04 AM
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for again demonstrating how stupid and unreasoning the extreme fringe element that so dominates this forum really is!
Oh btw... "I have long felt Gitmo should be closed, it is a recruiting tool for terrorist groups"...Adm Mike Mullen, Chm./JCS at 11:04 AM May 24 2009 on ABC's This week. Of course I'm sure you and your ilk consider him another left-wing blame America apologist.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Architect responds..
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Date:
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5/24/2009 3:16:16 PM
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to Hounds thoughtful post on reflections post 9-11. I thought her post was well stated and made sense.. Architect found it 'stupid and unreasoning'. Let's posit this, 'tect' If you had a child (which i doubt) kidnapped by a known sadistic child murderer would you be in favor of water boarding the SOB to save his/her life?? Enuff for now, got fish to clean and another trip to the honey hole for more crappie, if the friggin rain slacks .
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/24/2009 3:40:17 PM
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"I pray to God that we have."
Why?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Architect responds..
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Date:
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5/24/2009 5:14:03 PM
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You are completely unable to get any reasonable message out of any post that is not in lock-step with your warped extremist views. I did not find Hound's comments "stupid and unreasoning". It was your comments that I find stupid and unreasoning. Her comments were excellent and right to the point. I am in complete agreement with her. My response was in regard to my hope that we have as a people learned something from 9-11. We in our panic and hysteria after that horrific event came very close to abandonment of much of what I was taught this nation stands for in an attempt to strike back, to get revenge, to get even. Never let us get to the point that we are willing "to destroy the nation in order to save it".
Now, if my child were held by terrorists I would be willing to waterboard and much much more to save her. If you were a father from say Yeman whose son was taken off the street by foreign military or intellegence people ,and taken to a forign land and possibly subjected to "Inhanced interrogation" all without your knowledge of where or why, what would your reaction be when you finally learn the facts of his confinement? What will the son's reaction be if he is ever released.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Architect responds..
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Date:
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5/24/2009 9:42:45 PM
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Ok Pal, now I got it..
My comments were stupid and unreasoning..
And you are in favor of waterboarding (and more) if a terrorist has your daughter and you need the intelligence to prevent her torture and death??.
Help me out if I misunderstood..
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Architect responds..
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Date:
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5/24/2009 9:49:40 PM
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Good grief, all most forgot.. that happens with us warped extreme guys.. I fought for your 1st Right Amendment.. and also for our 2nd Right Amendment.. Even in national parks..
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 10:00:47 AM
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Hound: To me Gitmo is a very simple issue. It is not located in teh U.S. and is filled with Islamofascists so they can't radicalize others ala 3 of the 4 terrorists recently arrested in New York. They do not have nor should they have the same rights as American citizens (i.e., due process, etc.) as they are enemy combatants that do not fight in uniform and are not covered under the Geneva Convention. Gitmo does not breed new terrorists as I demonstrated in an earlier post where I listed just some of the numerous terrorists attacks by Islamofascists that occurred before Gitmo ever existed.
All detractors like Archie can say is they will be secure in Max Security. But the better question which he will never answer with logic is why? Why close Gitmo? Who made it a problem for the Messiah anyway? It was leftist nut jobs in the first place who made such a big issue about it and made a lightning rod for criticism. And I can guarntee you that if Bush had originally wanted to bring them to the US and put them in Max Security the very same angry, demented America hating leftists would have condemned him for it and the ACLU would be filing lawsuits all over the place demanding they get the same rights as American citizens. Then some liberal, activist judge would put them in the general population while they use the criminal justice system to either expose sensitive information or be turned loose to kill more Americans. You know this is all true.
I don't think you can ever get Archie or any of the other hate America crowd to admit it but they really believe America deserved 911, they are anti-semitic and think the world would be a better place if Iran did nuke Israel off the face of the earth. They will sympathize with Islamofascists until they implement Sharia law and start executing homosexuals, making their wives and daughters wear bukhas and ban Christianity (oh wait, they'll actually like the last one) and only then will they will begin to complain.
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| Name: |
Old Diver
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 1:02:59 PM
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The liberal mindset is perfectly described in:
Romans 1:22
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Had a special on last night. It was a complete flashback from the early 90's forward. It went into detail of the intelligence/ communication problems, the lack of response from Clinton administration, the CIA not getting the information to the powers(Bush) at be and then it went into the bombings, the twin towers, etc.. It really brought everything back to heart. We cried, prayed and remembered those who have lost their loved ones, those who have lost their lives fighting for our freedoms, those that continue to protect this nation. GITMO should remain open. The people should be kept there and to he_ _ with those who want to give them equal justice as if they were citizens of the USA. We are treating illegal aliens better than we are treating some of our citizens now! If you can catch the special, I highly recommend you see it happen again in front of your eyes. You may feel even stronger about GITMO remaining open.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 9:16:57 PM
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Mar-TINY Man (And your Accusations in the above post That I am part of the "Hate America crowd" that thinks the nation "deserved 9-11" indicates you are a tiny man indeed) Please read Mr. HODJA's 5/24...6:00:45PM post under the "We fear what" thread. It will give you an excellent idea of what "class" in a man is all about. If you have read it , read it again because you demonstrate by the post above you didn't learn from it.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 10:21:31 PM
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Arch,
Nor did you. If you want to engage in productive debate you must not respond in kind -- state your concerns and your rationale for your statements in a non-combative form and you'll get a lot farther. You'd be surprised at how reasonable some of us right wing loonies can be.
At the trans-pubescent age of 64 I am always open to other ideas. If they are bogus I will dismiss them. If they have merit I will consider them. I suspect the same holds true for others on this forum.
Try civility. I stated my concerns. Lets hear yours in a fashion that we can consider intellectually rather than emotionally.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 10:35:45 PM
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Does the same apply for MM?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 10:51:52 PM
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I am an equal opportunity civility supporter.
MM, if Arch states his positions unemotionally, will you respond in kind?
Last time I checked we were all Americans.......I think!!
Anyone want to guess why I ride my donkey facing his arse?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 10:53:00 PM
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My response to your post was to agree that we all need to listen to logic and reason and to seek truth. How can that happen if one side refuses to consider the possibility that they might not already possess the absolute truth? And, as for logic and reason, well, you don't get there by calling those who try to present their interpretation of what is logical and reasonable as "America haters". I believe you show a willingness to let opposing ideas be thoughtfully considered. MM seems prefer to respond with derision.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 11:04:01 PM
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First of all I am not "taking sides" between you and MM. On balance I agree with him far more than you. That being said, just like I did with you, one of you needs to de-escalate the vitriol in search of reasoned debate. If you want to just yell your liberal ideas, go ahead, but all you will get is more of the same.
If I am correct on forum history, MM has been espousing his thoughts for some time on this forum before you joined the fray. As the johnny-come-lately, maybe you should be the one to extend an olive branch...(or as we said in the AF, the FNG!!)
Figured out why I ride my donkey backward yet?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 11:21:23 PM
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Nope. I'd love to be let in on the meaning and reason.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/25/2009 11:38:27 PM
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The internet is a wonderful source of information. I believe that one needs to find information on his own....hopefully you won't be disappointed, although the Hodja is a delightful personality.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Overthinking the Issue
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Date:
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5/26/2009 8:08:44 AM
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BTSOM, so I'll guess..
A. Better address your followers?
B. Provides an unobstructed view of Architect??
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
And You Did?
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Date:
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5/26/2009 8:09:42 AM
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
And You Did?
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Date:
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5/26/2009 9:10:25 AM
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Don't have the time to research this morning. I work for a living. Based on the above posts I think I can guess at the gist of it. As for me i'm not addressing any followers facing a donkey's rear. I'm more one of those Americans bringing up the rear of the 8 year parade cleaning up the mess left by the elephants.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Yeah, Typical....
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Date:
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5/26/2009 9:19:53 AM
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Democratic Talking Points. It's all Bush I tell ya, it's all Bush. Even though "O" is starting to see the "value" in Cheney and Bush's approach to foreign affairs, it's still, all Bush's fault. What a joke you and your's are. Now, even the Liberal in charge of "Pink" something or other, anti-war activists, are considering labeling the great "O" as a "war criminal." Oh, the Humanity of it all.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Architect, I must
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Date:
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5/26/2009 9:37:05 AM
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apologize for my last post, given the new quest for civility here. It was a misguided attempt at humor.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Architect, I must
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Date:
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5/26/2009 8:01:21 PM
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Apologize for what? It put a smile on my face. For my part humor, if not mean spirited, is always appropriate and appreciated. Tongue in cheek humor and even good natured insults will never raise my ire. Being called a "baby killer" and part of the "hate America" crowd alla Martini Man does.
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