| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/26/2009 1:35:28 PM
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Folks, our economic prosperity is being sold down the river by the Messiah and the Democrat controlled Congress. This bill represents the largest tax increase in American history. The more details you get the more awful this bill looks.
A few of the more outrageous details: 1) this will cost each American household as much as $4,000 or more each year; 2) each job created by similar legislation in Spain resulted in the loss of nearly 3 jobs, hence their 19% unemployment rate; 3) there is a provision for the direct deposit of over $3,000 per year for poor families as a result of lost purchasing power caused by this bill.
Considering global climates have stayed flat or have cooled over that last decade it seems to me that this incredible tax increase and redistribution of wealth for no benefit is a criminal act. These guys make Bernie Madoff seem like a piker..........
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/26/2009 2:10:06 PM
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MM, yet again he is doing what he said he would do. He told us during the campaign that he would bankrupt the coal industry and drive up the prices of non-green energy. And the idiots of this country STILL voted him in. The tax/energy credits are just another way for BO to redistibute wealth and buy more votes.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Ummmmmm.... MM
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Date:
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6/26/2009 2:42:22 PM
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You didn't expound on the word "piker" for our liberal friend.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Ummmmmm.... MM
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Date:
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6/26/2009 3:13:40 PM
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I thought he could handle two syllable words but you are right that it is better to be safe than sorry.
piker (Archie: pales in comparison)
Even though comparison is multi-syllable, it is in common usage in USA Today so I think we are safe to avoid that one.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Ummmmmm.... MM
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Date:
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6/26/2009 3:37:46 PM
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As always, I appreciate your compassion for the challenged among us.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
My pleasure.....
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Date:
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6/26/2009 4:25:03 PM
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even though I am an intellectual, right wing nut job.......and dang proud of it!!
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/26/2009 4:49:53 PM
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All seven Alabama Congressmen are said to be voting against this bill.
URL: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/metro.ssf?/base/news/124600418648570.xml&coll=2
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/26/2009 5:18:20 PM
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Some inconvenient factoids related to the whole global warming fiasco that further raises the question as to why the Messiah and Congress are trying to ram this through so quickly.
1. Numerous European and Asian countries are abandoning the carbon cap and trade concept and other carbon reduction efforts because of the growing skepticism about the relationship with global climates.
2. There are over 700 highly qualified scientists that have announced their skepticism about man's influence on global climates. This is more than ten times the number that were part of the 2007 UN panel on global climates that is much trumpeted by the left. This includes a number that were on the panel.
3. Based on more reliable data than we have ever had, while carbon dioxide levels continue to rise, global climates have been flat since 2001. Less reliable data indicates that global climates have actually cooled over the last decade while CO2 levels are up. These data suggest there is no correlation or at least suggests more scientific study is needed before a conclusion can be reached.
4. Numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers have thoroughly debunked all the doomsday prophecies related to the melting of polar ice caps, hurricanes and tornadoes, polar bear populations and many of the other alleged crises that are used to convince the scientifically illiterate of the impending end of the world.
And yet the Democrat controlled Congress and the Obama administration want to shove through a risky and wildly expensive cap and trade tax scheme that will do nothing to impact global climates and will do everything to further devastate our economy. Other developed countries are already putting their plans on the shelf until the science is truly settled. One has to wonder why the rush?
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| Name: |
Astro
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/26/2009 5:50:09 PM
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Reason! Power and Control over the dumb masses. The things that are going on in Congress at this time is the very reason our founding fathers put the 2nd amendment on the books.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/26/2009 8:15:03 PM
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What you are suggesting sounds like treason to me. In this country, we vote; we don't take to arms against our government. What you are suggesting has NOTHING to do with the intent of the 2nd Amendment.
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| Name: |
Astro
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/26/2009 8:41:08 PM
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To sugguest that I am suggesting that we take up arms in highly insulting and completely false. If you think that the founding fathers did not intend for citizens to bear arms for their personal protection and protection from oppressive governemnts then you have not studied history. I do not believe that making accusations such as you have leads to proper discussion on anything.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/26/2009 8:54:32 PM
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She's just trying to justify her vote AGAINST Bush in the last election. Maybe next time she'll vote for someone that can save us from this idiot.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/26/2009 9:57:43 PM
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Astro, when I read your statement I thought the same as the Hound. I assumed you were just releasing frustration about all the insane spending. Regardless of what you meant, it is wonderful to have the freedom of speech (albeit fettered by PC). It is likely those currently attempting free speech in Iran will pay a high price.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/27/2009 12:33:08 AM
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Our founding fathers were wonderful at implementing checks and balances, with the executive, legislative, and judicial keeping each other in line - and also through the second amendment another check on the government as a whole becoming dictatorial.
I agree that the vote is the intended way to turn around this mess you and others have voted us into, but the simple threat that an armed populace might turn against a bad-apple government is a deterrent in itself. To suggest that the THREAT of using the balance of an armed citizenry that our forefathers put into place is treasonous actually flies in the face of their original intent for doing so.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/27/2009 6:51:03 AM
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Bull. And very dangerous thinking in my view. In a democracy, you don't threaten your government with an armed populace. As far as I can see, indications that the majority of people in this country, (not just Central Alabama), are OK with what the government is doing.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/27/2009 7:44:42 AM
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wow ... I don't think that is true Hound.
I think a more appropriate statement is that the majority of people (although falling) feel in love with his speeches of hope and change without any specifics. Also the media made a huge deal that we were going elect a black man president so that made us progressive ... and many people were afraid, yes afraid to say they did not support him or even challenge him for more specifics. Why? When they did the media immediately said you must be racisit and just do not want a black man president. When people challenged past politicians that were white or a woman, you did not hear that.
Additionally, I did not think the majority of americans know what the impact of these bills are .... they blindly follow. And if they "like" the politician or the party they just wag their tails like they are happy with what is going on.
It is pretty obvious that is the case ... because I had several post and even specifically challenged Archie to post what policies and direction of Obama that he likes. Where does he expect it to lead us ... what is the vision or end game. When do we say it is working or not working? Or worse a total cluster F***.
Did I get any response from him or anyone else to demonstrate they understand the direction or what they are supporting in terms of where we are going? NO! Which just says they are blindly supporting a liberal socialist and what ever he is doing must be right. No thinking for themselves or even demonstrated understanding.
When MM makes an intelligent post with facts and solid points of view ... do you see the liberals on this board post what they do not agree with or what they do agree with ... no they attack him and others personally.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Hound
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Date:
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6/27/2009 8:29:13 AM
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You claim to be an educated woman, but statements like this really make one question whether you can truely be as educated as you claim. PROTECTION FROM A TYRANICAL GOVERNMENT IS THE VERY REASON THE 2ND AMMENDMENT EXISTS! What is treasonous is passing now the two largest spending/tax bills in the history of the world without even reading the dam thing. Treasonous is being so in bed with the media that no opposing veiws are allowed at the table. Teasonous is cutting NOTHING but defense spending when we are fighting a war on two fronts, three if you count the homeland. Tresonous is continuing to give billions of dollars to ACORN, an orginazation that is being investigated all over the country for voter fraud, who REFUSE to open their books as any other 501(c)(3) is required to do.
I could go on, but I don't enjoy tilting at all those new windmills that just got signed into law..............
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 9:59:56 AM
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Treason is quite a charge. Perhaps our founding father, TJ, knew way back then that this forum would need his thoughts on this subject, so here is one of them....
Famous Thomas Jefferson Quote relative to this discussion and many others on teh second amendment:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Question for you
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Date:
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6/27/2009 10:10:34 AM
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Hound: If our government ever became truly tyrannical (and I am not suggesting that this is the case today), would you support armed resistance by the populace? I recognize this is a hypothetical (Archie: an example meant to make a point) but I think it is important to distiguish between the right to bear arms in order to oppose tyranny versus unlawful opposition to lawful government.
If you oppose both then you have lost what it means to be an American and have impuned the men and women that risked everything to create the greatest country ever created. I expect you were referring to the latter but perhaps that clarification will calm the waters here, so to speak.
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| Name: |
Astro
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:19:32 AM
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I believe that some should add ostrich to their name. Their head is in the sand or perhaps in other places if they fail to see that freedom loving people can only be pushed so far. The people of Iran voted but you can see what that results was. I don't advocate revolution but I believe that at some time in the future Americans will be forced to do just that. Either the people that is being robbed by the government or those that believe they are not receiving enough will trigger it. I believe the greatest majority of people don't know what true freedom is because they have grown up in an era of government control. This administation is bent on destroying our capitalistic system in order to change it to their world view where everyone gets the same things. That will never happen. Even if the commom people achieve that goal the elites will also exempt themselves from the same rules. Anyone want to bet that Congress will not be required to accept the same healthcare that everyone else does?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Treason
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:49:07 AM
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You stayed in DC too long.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Question for you
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Date:
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6/27/2009 1:08:50 PM
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Only if or when the gov't cancels elections is it time to take up arms. As long as the people are permitted to choose those to represent them, their needs, their desire and their hopes the system is working whether central Alabama likes it or not.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Question for you
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Date:
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6/27/2009 1:14:35 PM
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Oh btw WW, I'm not at work today, I usually don't work on Saturday. I also don't live in Morningside, a little too "conservative" for me, but based on what I know of Atlanta neighborhoods and some residents of that fair locale, if you live there you must feel awfully lonely when a discussion among neighbors turn to politics.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 1:24:45 PM
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Astro, when considering the 2nd amendment within the context of the time it was drafted, I can envision action such as Jefferson spoke. It would have been possible for a state or states to stand against the federal government; perhaps even win. The more geographically dispersed the discontent the better the chance. But considering the technology of the armed forces today, its use at the full discretion of the government, the probability is quite small that local militias armed with only "legal" personal firearms could form and successfully oppose and topple the federal government by force. I mean no offense to those that like to think that the 12-gauge in their closet might one day be used to help free the country from tyranny. That thought is part of being an American (probably many liberals excluded). I like and own guns; specifically for protection. I don't plan to give that up. However, I view the 2nd amendment as a very limited check and balance at best against tyranny in our modern times. Once tyranny takes control of a powerful country usually only a high-level coup d'état within the government and the military along with the support of the masses can bring it to an end. Our best chance of success is voting intelligently as a population; if that is possible. We will find out in 2012.
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| Name: |
Astro
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 1:51:20 PM
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I can only hope and pray that voting will save our country but asking for intelligent voters is certainly asking a lot based on what happened in the last election. I think there is one satement in your discussion that I would somewhat disagree with. As a person that served in the military I can assure you that I would not fire on my fellow citizens that only wanted the constitution back. I think that would be the only way commom citizens would be able to mount a revolution since you are correct that the government has the bigger weapons. I cannot see American servicemen and women doing the same thing that we just witnessed in Iran. I know that I am going to be doing everything I can in the next election to vote new blood into Washington. Thanks for the discussion without calling people vile names.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 1:59:10 PM
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I agree that I was wrong (at least I hope so) that it would require a high-level coup d'état within the government AND the military. As you say, lets assume that the military at all levels would refuse the orders to make war on the American people. I'm not so sure about the government bureaucrats. ;-)
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Seems pretty narrow
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Date:
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6/27/2009 4:32:51 PM
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but I would agree with you that this would be one area where the 2nd amendment would apply. I would expand it beyond merely canceling elections. Elections are held all over the world in societies that are not free and elections are not fair and don't represent the will of the people.
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| Name: |
Feb
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| Subject: |
How Would You Classify
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Date:
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6/27/2009 4:42:13 PM
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MM, Our last National election? In your view/opinion, was it fair? Did the outcome reflect the desires of the majority of the American voters? How about a majority of the American citizens since most do not vote?
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Treason????
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Date:
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6/27/2009 5:10:37 PM
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2 points:
1. A coup is always possible ---even America. When Nixon was threatened with impeachment and no one knew what he was going to do, the Attorney General, some would say in contravention of the constitution, told the Pentagon (the SecDef and the Joint Chiefs ((just in case the SecDef went along with Nixon)) to check first with him (the attorney general) concerning all orders from Nixon for the deployment of troops either in the continental U.S. or overseas.
2. Kent State: Amercian national guard forces fired on , and killed, American college students who were protesting the Vietnam war, AND THEY WERE PROTESTING WITHOUT AWEAPONS. I personally trained a riot control company of regular Army troops that was ready to use force against US citizens demonstrating against the Vietnam wAR, if those demonstrations became violent.
Yes, I believe in the right to bear arms and the right to bear those arms in defense of the constitutiion. However, after the rebellion, it is the winners who will determine what was patriotism and what was treason. Scary, --huh?!
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Kent State
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Date:
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6/28/2009 10:09:51 AM
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Yes those troops fired on the protesters, but I doubt that you know the whole story of what those troops had been through in the days leading up to the shooting. There are some extinuating circumstances that you never hear about in 'news' reports. One of my b-i-l's was in that unit. When you hear the soldeirs side the whole incident takes on new meaning. I am not defending the kilings. It was tragic, but it wasn't murder.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Kent State
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Date:
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6/28/2009 11:41:35 AM
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Swimmer,
-Sorry to upset you.
-I never said Kent State was murder. I was only commenting on above posts that indicated that US troops wouldn't use force, especially deadly force, on US.citizens. Kent State shows they would.
-I am very much aware of what went on at Kent State before the shooting. Nothing that went on "justified" that shooting, ...but some of those things went a long way to explain "why" the shootings occured.
-In my above post, I said I was responsible for training a riot control company of regular Army troops for use in control of anti-Vietnam war demonstrations. We used the after-action reports from Kent State in trainnig our troops. In our trainnig we stresssed our troops in many of the same ways the Kent State troops were stresseD. In one instance during an exercise, we had one of our troops bayonet another of our troops who was acting as an anti-war demonstrater (yes, some scenarios called for unsheathed bayonets). Under stress, stuff happens.
-And that's the point. Whether it's demonstrations in Tehran, Tinneman Square, or Boston Commons, when demonstrations start, no one knows how they will end.
-If American citizens take arms against the American government, someone is going to get hurt. That's what taking up arms means, --the intent to use them. A show of force only works, if the person who sees that show of force believes that if the "show" doesn't work, then the "application" will follow. The kids at Kent State didn't realize that. I would expect that the soldiers at Kent State didn't realize it either.
-I'm truely sorry your friends have to live with this memory.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Wrong but fair overall
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Date:
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6/28/2009 1:31:02 PM
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I think we chose the wrong man obviously but other than the usual shenanigans by ACORN and other left-leaning organizations it represented the majority view at the time. Unlike liberals I accept electoral defeat and begin to look for ways to recover. No one rushed out with their attorneys and started filing lawsuits ala Algore.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Kent State
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Date:
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6/28/2009 3:03:18 PM
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Your post didn't upset me and I am sorry if it seemed that it did. I always placed all the blame on the troops until hearing my b-i-l tell his story. If you saw after action reports you probably know even more details than I do. By BIL was just a grunt soldier. But you must know also that the main 'stressors' on the troops leading up to the shooting had little to do with what was happening on campus. Most of the troops had been riding patrol on the interestates guarding the 'scab' truckers that were still hauling goods during the teamsters strike. MANY of them had been exposed to live fire while riding those convoys so their nerves were on edge already. I am not making excuses, just relating facts. In recent years I have also seen video and stills of the General in charge ranting and raving and demanding that they take action.
On the up side, the troops are much better trained now in crowd control and riot suppression. I still don't think you could get the average troops to fire on citizens here. I do however, beleive that there are certain units that have been specifically trained to respond to domestic situations. Unfortunately, I fear we may both find out the answer sooner than we would hope.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
How Would You Classify
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Date:
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6/28/2009 6:38:40 PM
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reguardless of if it was fair, that does not mean that those that do not agree and let their voice be heard. God knows we heard from the liberals for 8 years under Bush because their candidate did not win ... TWICE.
I am one that feels some of the actions by Obama and the democratic party are criminal and are designed to make more and more reliant upon the government. That adds to their base, since most will not vote against the hand that is feeding them.
Time will tell ... but show me the results or even a trend to the right direction.
At the rate BO and the dems are spending money and running up the deficit, soon the US will be bankrupt. Cap & Trade is a huge tax on the american people, a 1.5 trillion national healthcare program? Come on ... do you really think this is good?
You were in the military, that should not be your style to stick your head in the sand and ignore what is happening to our great country.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Cap and Trade
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Date:
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6/28/2009 10:56:01 PM
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The American Petroleum Institute estimates the resulting additional federal tax on gasoline will be $1.70 per gallon. (Various other estimates range from a low of $1.55/gallon to $2.20/gallon). Using this number, at 15,000 miles per year, driving a car attaining current CAFE average mpg, we consumers face an additional $925 per year in federal gasoline taxes. Our utility bills are projected to increase substantially (estimates vary from 45% to 80%). This doesn't just land in the consumers lap. These increases are all the way through the supply chain. So, in addition to the grand per vehicle in additional fuel tax, and another $1500 for utilities in town, $650 at the lake, $650 for the boat fuel, another $450 fuel tax for the jet skis, PLUS a 20% increase, as we saw last year, in beer prices, 16% in food prices, just pause for a moment and imagine how much more money is going to fill the trough for the greedy pigs to buy more underprivileged votes. US drivers travel 3 trillion miles annually, current fleet average at 20 mpg, yields an additional $255,000,000,000 (merely BILLIONS) on gas and diesel ONLY. Add in the results from the electricity and NG increases, and see how many more "voters" ACORN can reach.
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