| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 2:20:27 PM
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bill ... can you answer a few simple questions.
1. For those on the government socialist plan, they will cap amounts to be paid to doctors for procedures. Do you think this will drive more talented people in to the medical profession or less?
2. Part of the bill will limit the price of prescription drugs. Do you think this will increase or decrease innovation and research by bio techs and drug companies?
3. The price of emergency room visits will be capped, as well as the price and length of stay in hospitals will be regulated if you choose the government plan. Do you think this will increase or decrease the number of new hositals built by private enterprises? Or do you think the government will have to start to fund new hospitals?
Depending on how you answer the above questions:
a. Do you think our healthcare will improve or get worse over time?
b. Do you think healthcare will be as accessible as it is today over time?
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 4:33:35 PM
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1. Most physicians currently accept government programs. Yes, some will decide not to practice or enter medicine. However, private coverage will never disappear. Any government program will be for those unable to obtain private coverage. We do, however, have too many specialists. Most of the complaints about denied coverage from physicians is on HMO coverage. Do you think your parents would have coverage were it not for Medicare. You know medicare care will suffer initially as more are added to the ranks of those uninsured. I hope you are not suggesting to deny people coverage so they can just die and allow you to reap the benfits of access to insurance. First you say the government is going to establish to panel to determine who lives and dies and then you want to deny people coverage.
2. There will always be research for new drugs. Profits will be less but then why should the US pay the research cost and allow Canada under their medical system to negotiate lower prices???? The Veterans Admin currently negotiates for drugs and I have never read about a drug company refusing to do business with them.
3. “An estimated 50 million, or 42 percent, of the 120 million visits made in 2006 to U.S. hospital emergency departments were billed to the Medicaid and Medicare programs, according to a U.S. government report released 7/30/2009.
Uninsured patients were the most frequent users of hospital emergency departments.”
This tells us that a large majority of emergency visits were not private insurance insureds. The hospitals are currently subsidizing the uninsureds. The 50 million visits by medicaid and medicare are at government controlled payments. Bringing more under a government program will pay the hospital for the large number of uninsureds that are either paid for by higher premiums for you, government subsidy from taxes, or the hospital sucks it up. Those that can afford to pay are unfairly charged the highest charges by the hospital which just makes it that much more difficult to pay. Hospitals will love it.
Maybe, it is time for privare insurers to deliver on their promise of 1993 and make insurance affordabe and cover pre existing when the program is opened up. They are is a catch 22 that they will cover pre exisiting if all are covered. You don’t want everyone to be covered because it will slow down the delivery of health care. I don’t advocate a single payer program plan any more than you do. Private industry has to step up to the plate. Give us your solution?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 4:45:15 PM
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I support some changes to the healthcare system, but I'm not sure any or all of what you mentioned is being discussed at the moment. As I understand it, there are a number of amendments floating around.
So, WW, why don't you just calm down until there is actually a bill? Your reaction is typical of what we're seeing at the Town Hall meetings, and frankly, I blame the conservative media for it. They have created a climate of fear through misinformation and speculation, and it is all politically based. Now, I understand that some people are not analytical thinkers might be swallowing these sound bites whole -- but you are well educated and I assume your profession requires a bit of analytical and objective thinking. You need to find an outlet for your rabid hatred of Obama. Have you tried racquetball?
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 5:21:46 PM
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1. For those on the government socialist plan, they will cap amounts to be paid to doctors for procedures. Do you think this will drive more talented people in to the medical profession or less?
Actually, insurance companies already do the same thing. The insurance company says "We will pay X dollars for procedure A". Doctors can decide if they want to paticipate with those insurance companies - some do, some choose not to. I suspect the same will be true with the government plan.
Also, the government plan will only be a small fraction of the overall health care "market", so I don't think it will impact the decisions of young folks deciding if they want to be doctors or not.
2. Part of the bill will limit the price of prescription drugs. Do you think this will increase or decrease innovation and research by bio techs and drug companies?
Again, insurance companies already do the same thing. Here's what we'll pay - pharmacies/drug companies can decide if they want to participate or not.
Drug companies and biotechs will continue to be innovative and invest in research - because if they don't they will end up like the auto industry.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
There is a bill
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Date:
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8/15/2009 5:37:02 PM
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HR3200 ... I can email it to you if you would like.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 5:50:51 PM
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you are so out of touch ... and dreaming. The reason socialized medicine has "failed" everywhere and people come to the US for treatment and good care is because of these things. We are a capitalist society and your comment that bio techs will continue to "invest" demonstrates how out of touch you are. They get their money from "investors" for their research for hope that they get a breakthrough drug that can make billions of dollars including covering the billions they put in to research. What investor in their right mind would take the risk to fund reseach knowing the potential profits will be limited.
Do you understand the concept of risk and reward in capitalism.
I will take a bet that if this passes, by the end of Obama's first term we will be on a single payer system as the ONLY way to truely control costs. Doctors entering medical school will be on the decline, new drug research investments will be greatly down, and will have already started to see long waits for appointments and allocated care.
GF has already stated that "there will ALWAYS be a private option" ... there will be "private" coverage available, just like in Canada for those that can afford it. So to that end I agree that there will be a private option. But that is NOT the goal of Obama or the dems. They want a government plan and only a government plan that is offered to private citizens, yet congress will be exempted from the plan.
I will support the bill 100% if every democrat in congress signs on for the "government plan" and does not exempt themselves for their own special plan. If it is good enough for the people they represent, it should be good enough for them and their families.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
WW Are you serious
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Date:
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8/15/2009 7:54:08 PM
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"I will support the bill 100% if every democrat in congress signs on for the "government plan" and does not exempt themselves for their own special plan. If it is good enough for the people they represent, it should be good enough for them and their families."
I don't care whether or not Congress is covered under a Government plan. There is no way I would support the plan in its entirety as now written. I guess we now know your willingness to accept a socialistic plan of insurance. MM, WIX, AU, AlaHUSKER. Hodja must be scratching their collective heads. Welcome to the
Left. We are the only gamne in town for you going forward.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I have looked at it
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Date:
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8/15/2009 9:23:33 PM
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But it's not the final Bill. And there are a lot of amendments floating around. It's still being marked up. You and I both know that the final bill is going to look a lot different than that bill.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 10:15:00 PM
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I've never said I'm for socialized medicine. I've never said I'm for single-payer. I've stated clearly that I don't like the current plan being proposed because of it's huge scope and breadth. I would prefer that we tackle health insurance/health care refrom on a more balanced, step by step approach.
You really should join the Keith Olbermann forum .... because the people you want to argue with aren't here on this one. There may be people who believe what you think "liberals" believe, but I haven't seen one on this forum.
As for drug companies and biotechs .... they still will make BILLIONS over the next few decades, and the fact that they may only make $30B in profits on a drug rather than $40B will not slow them down in the least. The only other businesses I know of that have that kind of profit potential are oil/energy and financial servics.
Not only do I understand the concept of risk and reward, but I also know to start all my sentences with capital letters, I know that it's "truly" and not "truely", and I understand that GF said there will alwys be a private INSURANCE option ... what Canada has is a national system and then a private health care SERVICE option for the wealthy. Not the same thing.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
There is a bill
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Date:
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8/15/2009 10:44:30 PM
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WW ... could you just e-mail me the portion that says that it will cover illegal aliens? I have looked for it and I just can't find that in the bill. Thanks.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
WW Are you serious
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Date:
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8/15/2009 11:09:36 PM
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yup you can welcome me if you can get all your liberal friends to sign on ... if it is good for the americans that put them in office it should be good for them ,,,, when they sign on, i will sign on.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 11:16:28 PM
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have you ever looked at a bio tech p&l? i type off a lap top and i do not run a spell check. i have an assistant that converts my dictation at the office. typing an spelling is not something i worry about as you will find is the case with most professionals and leaders. Something I would guess you don't understand. sorry. :)
so you focus on mispelled words and i will focus on the real issues. I am sure that is why you have been so successful.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/15/2009 11:52:56 PM
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WW ... I always forget that sarcasm/humor doesn't translate into typed text. I was joking about your typos, etc. ... I have made plenty of typos and misspelled words in my posts ... I was trying to be funny and failed miserably ... my apologies for that ... but as to your original point ... I don't think drug companies and biotechs are going to shut down operations and go out of business just because their profit models are limited slightly ... they still stand to make billions of dollars over the next few decades, and nothing in the health care proposals is going to put any biotech company or drug company out of business.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
If you support the healthcare
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Date:
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8/16/2009 1:15:35 AM
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-Lots of interesting health care stuff in above posts. Really hard to keep track of so many positions on so many different elements of the proposed bill.
-Up front let me say I support heath care reform; I believe all Americans (not to include illegals) should have health insurance; I believe HR3200 sucks; I believe the emphasis should be on 1) better regulating the health insurance business, 2) cutting waste especially in medicare and medicaid; and 3)if necessary, raising taxes.
-I don't agree with posts that say we should cool it because we don't have a bill and that there are still lots of amendments. As far as I can tell, the house leaders tried their damndest to have HR3200 be "THE" bill before the August recess. The reason it isn't is because of "right wing / conservative" pressure, blue dog response to that pressure; the senate unwilling to even show its companion draft because of the ruckus, and really concerned citizens voicing their concerns.
-So remember, we would already have HR3200, melded with its senate companion, as a proposed bill on the way to the white house desk if the congressional leadership had had their way. So the fact that we still have time to change the screwball parts of this bill is no thanks to the congrressional leadership.
-AS bad as what's "stated" in the proposed bill is what is "implied" in the bill. Rationing is never mentioned but is certainly implied. Here's the trail:
--- 1) Sen Daschle (Sp?) wanted to be the head health guy in the new administratiion, so he wrote a book about a new healthcare system for the US. Writing a book gives you instant credibility in DC. 9 However, Not paying your taxes, or getting caught not paying your taxes, tends to ruin your creds.) The system in his book is heavily copied from the British system to include government panels, commissions, cost controls, etc. Two of the chief words to describe the British system are "government-run" and "rationing."
---2) Daschle's book is the chief source for HR3200, --plus add on a lot of old liberal dreams and payoffs.
---3) The fear of rationing, and especially rationing of senior care, comes from three distinct areas: 1) the administration's claim to cut $500 million dollars from present costs while adding 46 million more people can only come primarily from one area: medicare. Why is that? --because everybody over 65 is already on medicare, so the 46 million new recipients must be under 65 and thus will be spread throughout the rest of the system; 2) the British system, which was the source of ideas for the administratio's proposed system, heavily rations care to the elederly; and 3) Obama himself stated that perhaps the elderly would be better off taking a pill than surgery in some cases. Now this could have been a slip that didn't really reflect his beliefs. However, one of his chief white house advises on health is Dr. Ezeikiel Emanuel whose writings have consistently supported decreasing portions of health care dollars going to people of increasing age. Does the president have these people as advisors because he doesn't want to listen to them?
-I'm against this bill for a number of reasons, but primarily because of the rationing that will surely come out of it, and especially rationing of care to seniors because ...well, ...because I is one!
-Socialists would call me selfish to put myself before the state, -to put my welfare before the welfare of a 30 year old father of a family.
-But that is a false choice. The socialist perspective is always of a pie with only so many slices to go around, -so rationing always results. The capitalist perspective is you can always bake a bigger pie so there is enough for everyone, ...or, even better yet, you can have lots of pies so that everyone can have the type he or she likes.
-The socialist/communist view which we are seeing more and more of is "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." And there is some truth to that axiom in most moral frameworks. However, it gets distorted in a political framework because some group, usually the government, decides who has needs and how much they will get to satisfy those needs. Thus the needy become supplicants to the government and do not do anything to piss that government off or their needs will not be met. Additionally the government decides who has the abilities and how much of the fruit of those abilities will be directd to the needy. The able then become slaves to the government and the needy. The government then becomes the focal point of commerce, morals, culture, etc. Now let's look to D.C. and see the kind of people who will be making those decisions. IS that what we want? And that's now. The real flaws in socialism are long term and show up after two generation, about 40 years, when the impetus of the pre-socialist stae has been spent,and socialism's lack of ingenuity, innovation, etc become known. Then it's too late.
-Me? I'm not a Republican, --but I'm glad the right-wing nuts, conservatives, and concerned citizens all got together to kill this bill. I hope they succedd. I believe a better bill will rise from the ashes.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Good post
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:33:36 AM
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I think you hit on some very good points:
1. HR3200 was/is the bill and thank God there was push back forcing discussion and change to the bill.
2. A huge part of the cost is coverage for "all" and how does that not include illegals, or what happens when a known illegal asks for care.
3. Why does there have to be a "government plan" that could lead to a single payer socialist program, especially when Obama himself has said that is his objective and that he while you can keep your private insurance, he will make it attractive (initially) for businesses and individuals to switch to the government plan.
4. If costs are capped through doctors fees and drug prices, how do you prevent gradual decline in the overall quality of healthcare. Part of the reason it is the quality it is and availability is because it is through free enterprise. That can be costly.
5. Adddress one of the real cost driver, medical malpractice through tort reform. Let Obama show he will ignore the lobbists and do what is right to control healthcare cost.
6. Make whatever bill that passes, be the SAME program all members of congress must be on.
7. I just heard Obama on the Sunday talk shows with his one liners and one he said ... there were the same fear tactics when social security was being introduced and that did not turn out to be true. I disagree ... social security is a socialist program that has done more harm than good. It was miss run by the government, it is bankrupt, there have been all sorts of broken promises to the original plan and far more costly. I still say, let me out today and i will let them keep all my money i put in and i only have a maximum of 8 years left to pay in.
8. Finally i think the bill should ONLY address what they say are problems and simplify the program.
a. people that lose their jobs keep their insurance for a period of time at no cost, then at a ramp up of cost
b. people are not denied coverage because of an existing illness
c. tort reform
That should be enough to start with, without a government "public" option. That is a small percentage of the population. Lets see the ideas on those areas and the cost before a total overhaul.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My Only Point is This
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:35:26 AM
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And maybe I didn't make it that well. I didn't mean to suggest that the debate should stop, and I for one, am glad that it is being discussed. But to get totally wrapped around the basic bill is a waste of time -- there are 5 different committees (source, "Sunday Morning" about 5 minutes ago) marking up the bill.
I don't support the basic bill as written -- but, I look at it as something that puts forth a premise that they will make changes from. Since you worked in DC, you know that nothing happens without a basic piece of paper and a "bill" is the piece of paper that Congress works with.
What I do object to is the right wing media whipping people into a frenzy of fear by papetuating rumors and conjection. That's what I see at these town hall meetings when people are screaming -- I see people that have been whipped into a frenzy of fear. When did we stop being able to have civilized debate?
To me, a responsible media reports the facts and lets people draw their own conclusions.
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You throw around the term "socialist" so often I am beginning to believe that you have been drinking gallons of the right wing Kool Aid.
I too watched the clips of Obama on the news this morning. I even watched about 10 minutes of his town hall meeting. Did you really listen to what he is saying? I don't think so.
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I did ... very carefully. He talks with fork tongue.
I am sorry, but I do not trust a word the guy says. He has an agenda and will lie or carefuly frame a sentence to sound like one thing but really have a different meaning. Remember he is an attorney :). He has already redefined many of his campaign promises, if not out right chnaged them. I feel he thinks he treats the american people as being stupid, that he knows what is best and it does not really matter what they want. He will say or do anything to get his agenda passed.
I honestly feel he is a VERY dangerous man to the future of our country, freedoms and capitalism.
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Because this is not "just a bill". This is the BIG step toward Socialism and once this kind of government program is in place, it is almost impossible to end it. Look at all the government programs in place that never faded out. Look at all the government programs that are going bankrupt. The government can't do anything right and the people have had ENOUGH of their hard earned money being spent like drunken sailors. No business can compete against a government run program. They have no cap. They have an endless supply of your tax dollars. Who can compete with that? NOBODY!
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take it away. (Thomas Jefferson). I think it is time to shrink government. I think it is time to get some balance back in the house and senate , It's time for term limits, It's time to clean house. Then we can stop this craziness coming from washington!
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
My Only Point is This
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Date:
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8/16/2009 10:29:07 AM
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did you see the piece on France? Doctors make a salary (set by the government) of between $50m and $100m depending on their specialty. Oh I can see enrollments at med school going through the roof in the US. It would only take them 20 years or so to pay off their US education.
Do you really think we would have the same quality doctors at that level? Smart people can do a variety of things.
What they failed to say is that the "standard" to be classified as a doctor in France is much, much lower than in the US. In most cases in France, a doctor is more like a nurse qualifications in the US (maybe less). They also do not have the medical malpratice insurance the US doctors have to carry that Obama will NOT reform.
Hound, I have enjoyed your posts and a spirited debate, but I feel the only one drinking kool-aide on this one is you. You seem to be falling for what Obama and the dems are saying hook line and sinker.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Amen ... thank you! (nfm)
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Date:
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8/16/2009 10:30:43 AM
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We will soon be moving to the mountain just like in "Atlas Shrugged".
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Water Man
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Date:
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8/16/2009 1:28:13 PM
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Name: water_watcher The author of this post is registered as a member - Email Member
Subject: WW
Date: 8/16/2009 10:22:04 AM
I did ... very carefully. He talks with fork tongue.
I am sorry, but I do not trust a word the guy says. He has an agenda and will lie or carefuly frame a sentence to sound like one thing but really have a different meaning. Remember he is an attorney :).
This is exactly how many view your posts. After all, as you have told us you have a law degree from Emory.
So glad you enjoyed your big night out with your wifey. Sadly, I spent my Saturday with my 4 grandchildren.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Water Man
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Date:
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8/16/2009 1:34:36 PM
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Hey, GF I'd rather spend time with my 5 year old grandaughter with a trip to the Varsity any time than going with adults to a fancy restaurant. I'll bet you feel the same.....Well on second thought it might be different with 4. How old are they?
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"sadly I spent mine with my grandchildren"
That is soooo odd to say ... why would that be "sadly"? I think that would be a thrill. I know it would be for me.
Very strange how you think. That is sad.
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" I feel he thinks he treats the american people as being stupid, that he knows what is best and it does not really matter what they want. He will say or do anything to get his agenda passed."
And see, this is exactly what soured me on GWB. I thought that was his exact attitude. And we know he was willing to lie and redefine the truth to get his agenda done.
It's politics, WW, it's politics. Doesn't matter who sits in the chair.
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think you are way overstating the case. What you said sounds like a sound bite from Rush Limbaugh.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My Only Point is This
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Date:
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8/16/2009 4:28:49 PM
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I'm not drinking anything, other than the occasional diet Pepsi and a latte now and again.
I have never heard that French Drs. have much lower standards. Where did you get that information? They have a different approach to medicine than we do. Did you know that every ambulance in France carries a Dr? Why shouldn't we look at their system and evaluate the pluses and minuses and see what might work for us?
For all of you singing the praises of our current health care system -- we do not have the lowest infant mortality rate, we don't have the longest life span and our medical costs are amongst the highest. I'm not saying it's bad, because i think it's fine, but why not look at ways to make it better?
Geez, I've never seen so many people in one place so willing to spout rhetoric and less willing to think objectively. No one is asking you to embrace Obama's plan hook line and sinker, but your fear is getting in the way of your ability to think critically.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
sad, isn't it ... (nfm)
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Date:
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8/16/2009 5:22:21 PM
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
WW .........socialist
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Date:
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8/16/2009 5:31:21 PM
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WW is misusing the term "socialist". Based on the arguments presented to this forum, as well as the support for a federal solution to the health care issues, the correct term is "statist".
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Please read ...
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Date:
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8/16/2009 5:33:50 PM
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I am all for trying to "improve" our system ... not just a massive overhaul and I am against government control of 1/3 of our GDP. Nearly every program and proposal that Obama has made since becoming president is another step toward socialism. He definitely thinks it is an attractive and interesting form of government. I read his books.
My point on doctors in France, they do not have the same requirements we have in the US to practice medicine ... most countries do not. If we told US doctors they will make between $50 and $100m and get to ride in an ambulance and make house calls for $65 they would laugh at you. You will not get the best and the brightest at those levels. They will do something else with their life and career. That was why I said over time a government "controlled" and run system will cause a decline in healthcare.
I saw the piece on CBS this morning as well. Please keep in mind that France is smaller than texas. And even at that, their population is concentrated. What works for a small country or population can not always be replicated on an economy the size of the US that has its economic model built on capitalism. Trying it and failing could be a disaster beyond comprehension. That is why I keep saying, it is not broken, improvements are needed, NOT a total overhaul.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
France
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:10:11 PM
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WW I know you don't want to hear this, but France also has an economy based on Capitalism. France is actually 80% the area of Texas but has 3 times the population.
Hound please don't agitate WW by suggesting that either he or our country could ever learn anything from any other nation or culture. America was doing every aspect of everything better than any other nation until Obama screwed it up Now WW has been sent to show us the error of our ways in daring to give Obama a chance.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
And BTW WW
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:18:12 PM
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Even Dick Armey (medicare is tyranny)* claims that healthcare is only 17% of our economy. Only your imagination could elevate it to a third. That and beyond is where it is headed unless major changes are put in place.
* Great idea WW! Why don't you and your fellow travellers start a petition there in middle Alabama calling for the repeal of the "socialistic" Medicare and Social Security systems. Start with those nearing or over 65.
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I am all for "giving Obama a chance" ... but not a free pass to totally turn our healthcare system upside down when it is not broken. I have said many times we all agree that fixes are needed ... but NOT a total overhaul.
As for France ... they voted in a socialist government, they did just vote back (I guess they did not like socialism that much) a democratic leader. Yes their small economy was formed on capitalism, but today they are much more a socialist nation.
80% the population of texas still is not the size of the US.
And no one is addressing the $50 -$100m salary for their doctors. Nurses in this country make more ... and deserve to. What they call a doctor and give a license to is not the same standard or qualifications as to what a doctor in the US requires. So are you saying we should just lower our standards and set similar pay scales so we can have enough doctors at those salaries? CBS pointed out that a doctor rides in an ambulance ... well who knows, I don't, but maybe what they call a doctor is not much more than a parametic in the US.
We are not talking about an idea that Obama has that if it does not work we just go back ... we are talking about a complete overhaul and government control of our healthcare and 1/3 of the GDP. IF APPROVED, there is no turning back if it does not work.
If our system was a total disaster, I would be first saying, well anything is better than what we have .... but it is not. You can get appointments when you want, have access to the best doctors in the world, the best research, the best medications that supply the world. Is their problems ... YES .... but lets address the problems and not throw the system out the window in the process.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
$50 and $100m ?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:27:08 PM
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WW ... that is twice now you have posted $50m and $100m? Do you mean $50K and $100K? The first time I thought it was just a typo, but twice makes me think I am missing something. Thanks.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
I now give Obama credit
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:42:21 PM
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just calm down archie ...
it depends on what you include in the cost ... but in 2008 the cost was roughly $2.6 trillion ... 2009 is projected closer to $3 trillion. So lets split the difference and say 20%, or we can use your 17%.
That is still too much of the US economy that I would want controlled by the federal government. We obviously do not see the role of the federal government the same. Also how do you explain that 23 states have passed bills under the 6th amendment that would allow them to not accept a national program even if it passes.
Again, the point is that fixes are needed, but not a total overhaul or a government controlled system.
As for your comment about telling people about medicare ... who ever suggested doing away with that ... other than saying I would opt out today for SS and medicare, leave it in place. But that is another government run bankrupt system that is full of corruption.
As I was writing this, I just saw a news highlight that Obama stated today that he may be willing to "drop" the government option because it does not appear americans want this and it is getting in the way of contructive discussion.
Duh. Finally he has shown some leadership.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
$50 and $100m ?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:45:29 PM
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you can use a K if you want .... but financial people use m for thousands and mm for millions. an M in roman numerals is a thousand and two m's are a million. At least it was when i went to school. I work with banks and wall street all the time and an m is a thousand. Not sure where K ever came from, but I do know some people not in the financial industry use that.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
just so you know
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Date:
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8/16/2009 7:48:47 PM
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Yes I have and enjoy a wonderful lake home here on lake martin that we try to get to at least a couple weekends a month. actually here most of next week. but I live in atlanta most of the time and have a condo in Park City, UT as well. But do to a leg injury I cant ski anymore so we have it listed for sale, but dont expect anything for a while.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
$50 and $100m ?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 8:14:54 PM
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WW when and where did you go to school. My teacher in the 4th grade told me M was the Roman Numeral for 1000 and MM was 2000. Was she wrong. France, as I said has 80% of the geographic area of Texas but twice the population. Now if healthcare costs are $3 trillion as you say please let me know where you got the information that our GDP has dropped from $14 trillion to $9 trillion. Even in this Obama economy I didn't know it was that bad!
I know the above remarks are petty and perhaps a bit wise a**, but WW says such off the wall, discredited, stupid and out-right misleading stuff that I just can't help it.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
and FYI
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Date:
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8/16/2009 8:25:54 PM
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WW the 4th place graduate of the L.Q.C Lamar School of Law at Emory U. should know that K comes from the Greek "Kilo" for 1000. Hence Kilogram (1000 grams) and Kilometer (1000 meters)
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
and FYI further
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Date:
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8/16/2009 8:32:39 PM
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For tens of millions in this country both insured and uninsured the healthcare system IS a disaster. It is for these that reform is required, not just advisable, required. Those of us in better circumstances will find our own situation deteriorating at a faster and faster rate if we don't have the intelligence ,the guts and the political will to do what must be done.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
$50 and $100m ?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:13:40 PM
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no MM is one million. You are so so strange. look up how to read roman numerals. don't you watch the superbowl.
When to grade and hs school in the bronx.
you did not read my post ... I said it depends on what you count as healthcare ... so I acquiescenced and said we can bifurcate
the difference rather than argue about the percent. the same point is made whether it is 20% or 30% or 17% ... you pick, I don't care ... it is still too much of the economy for the government to control.
At least your missiah is caving and giving up on the public option. First smart thing he has done. Now we can talk real reform rather than government take over.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
and FYI
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:14:57 PM
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never did drugs ... :)
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
and FYI further
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:17:32 PM
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ok ... calm down. Go in the corner and stamp your feet. you act like a child not getting his way.
There are 300mm people in the US even if 8 to 10 million think it is a disaster ... that means more than 290mm do not.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
$50 and $100m ?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:41:27 PM
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I guess the argument can't be settled until we get to Superbowl MM to know whether it is the two thousandth or one millionth, Actually I looked it up before posting....MM=2000.
Now to the more outrageous and heartless of your statements. It is not 8 or 9 million for whom healthcare is a disaster but even if it was do you just suggest we tell them to just blow their brains out if they become seriously ill. You know WW you or someone you love could be just one serious illness or job loss away from facing a health insurance desaster under the current system.
Oh, you used your incorrect 30% figure again after I pointed out your error.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
you are so
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Date:
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8/16/2009 9:57:30 PM
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foolish ... I have said over and over that there are fixes needed. I just do not want a complete overhaul to address a small percentage. And of the 8-10mm (that is 1000*1000 or million) that do not have insurance, a large percent can get it, they just choose not to have it. Does that mean the government should just goive it to them?
They require car insurance to drive a car, they require homeowners insurance if you have a mortgage. Require health insurance and help those that truely can not afford or can not get it.
You are fighting with yourself. I have NEVER once said there should not be fixes to the system. But I have said I am against a total overhaul AND a government run system.
Now even Obama is giving up on a government run system ... thank God. Now we can have productive discussion about fixes to the cureent system.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
So I'm I to assume
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Date:
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8/16/2009 10:19:57 PM
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you now support Obama's plan sans the Government option even if the "Death Panels" stay in?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
So I'm I to assume
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Date:
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8/16/2009 10:27:02 PM
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death panels are suppose to be out, now obama says the overnment option and government run may be off the table if there can be discussion ... so I will wait to see what the new bill looks like before I can say I can support it .... but it is two major steps in the right direction.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
DEATH PANELS?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 11:11:36 PM
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THEY WERE NEVER IN THE PLAN!!!!
I may be on the verge of a stroke ... perhaps it's time for a beer. :)
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
DEATH PANELS?
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Date:
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8/16/2009 11:17:35 PM
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call them what you want ... end of life counseling does not sound good. someone helping you decide if you really need to keep holding on or if that operation is worth it.
They have dropped that and I think that is a good thing. People can make that decision on their own with their family ... they do not need a government panel to do that with you.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
DEATH PANELS?
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Date:
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8/17/2009 12:09:30 AM
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WW ... there were never going to be government panels .. all the bill said was that it would pay for voluntary consultations with doctors about end-of-life counseling ... so by dropping the provision, that means that people under the plan who want to have end-of-life counseling will have to pay for it out of their own pocket - no coverage.
But to make sure I understand your position .... you don't think the government/Congress/Senate/White House should be making end-of-life decisions? It should always be up to the individual or their next of kin who have been designated to make end-of-life decisions? Thanks.
URL: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/13/sarah-palin/palin-claims-obama-misled-when-he-said-end-life-co/
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Also
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Date:
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8/17/2009 12:14:16 AM
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I had major surgery a few years ago ... and although my prognosis was good, it was possible that there would be complications that could be life threatening ... I had an attorney prepare a living will that specified my desires in the event I found myself in a vegetative state, and I specified which family member should make my health care decisions should I be unable to make them for myself. It cost me a couple of hundred dollars ... and I wish my insurance or some government program covered the cost. End-of-life planning is a responsible part of our health care planning - regardless of our age.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Also
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Date:
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8/17/2009 9:03:22 AM
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In the recent past such provisions have been supported by none other than Newt, Sarah P, Grassly, Hatch, J. Issakson, etc.
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