| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:02:33 AM
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I am concerned about the ugly turn our political discourse and perhaps national character seem to be taking. At least 17 people showed up with fire-arms outside the Colorado townhall by Pres. Obama. One man had a semi-automatic assault rifle slung over his shoulder. I don't know whether these weapons were loaded. I assume that the lack of arrest means this was legal. My question is was it wise?
What would the readers across the political spectrum of this forum have said if a liberal activist had showed up armed at a rally outside an event where Pres. Bush was speaking against abortion of for the Iraq war?
What will our reaction be if at a future event the pro and anti factions let catcall turn into shouting then shoving then a dozen people laying on the ground dead, dying or injure.
How many of you think it is wise, or patriotic, or smart, or provocative to carry a loaded weapon to a political event? How many would do so?
People, is this really what we want America to be?
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:17:30 AM
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What lying blog are you reading. At least get the State correct. And you are insinuating that the gun is loaded--do you know that? Is that illegal? BTW, and AR15 is not really an assault weapon since it is a SEMI-automatic. Notice the guys rights were protected by the police and betcha the union goons kept their distance.
URL: News report on guns at o-BAMA meeting.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:21:01 AM
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The problems are the extremes, they are the ones who get the news. Yes, the extremes can do harm, and have to be managed. No, it is not a good idea to take a weapon to a town meeting. But weapons at a town meeting becomes the news instead of what is actually happening. Repubs have harped on the "death panel" concept, Dems have rebutted, and the main issues are overshadowed by this point. I have always said that if you have 10 points and one of them is weak, you only one 9 points. Harp on the 10th one and your opponents will too. They will find the weak one.
I am with the Conservs over this scary takeover of the country. Obama and Emanuel know it is now or never for much of this takeover, and they are selling the country. I am against both Libs and Conservs for the support, and welfare, to white collar crooks, aka bank and investment executives. Politicians on both sides only know how to spend and buy votes.
My soul is still searching for a good way out of this mess, I don't like the answer from Obama/Emanuel/Pelosi and I don't like the answer from Limbaugh/Hannity/Palin.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:22:11 AM
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I am not saying it was right or they should have had them. I am sure it was some radical individuals trying to show off. Because my understanding is they all had legal permits and had a right to carry them. In Kennesaw Ga the law requires adults to own a gun. There are very very few gun incidents, crime is extremely low. Maybe there is something to that. Criminals will always have guns even with gun laws ... only honest people are restricted from weapons with gun restrictions.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 10:29:11 AM
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The one I read about was in Arizona, and according to the article it is legal to carry an unconcealed weapon in Arizona, but one has to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
My take is that they were making a statement, not intending to do anyone harm. I support the right for law abiding citizens to own and carry firearms, and can understand why some with a more strident view of that right - who feel that right is in danger of being taken away - might want to make such a point.
Do I think it wise? No, if anything it probably just fuels the resolve of the anti-gun element to keep pursuing a ban.
What we really need to be concerned with are those who conceal their weapons and intent.
And I agree that our political discourse has become too polarized. I lean right, but have seen enough good progressive changes in my life to know that change is not necessarily bad. I just think the change we are undergoing now is really bad for thew long term future of this country.
NH
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 11:02:53 AM
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I think you have raised an interesting question. It's not really a question as to whether carrying a gun to a town hall is legal or not, but is it how we want to see our public discourse conducted in our country. Whether a gun is loaded or not, it is an implied threat to safety. The politics are increasingly polarized and in my opinion, the media plays a role in that. Certain factions on both sides are creating a culture of fear. I don't think we should ever give up our rights to public discourse and if people wish to protest, good for them. People should speak their minds to their elected officials. But, it disturbs me to see the naked fear.
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| Name: |
Lakeman
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 11:23:22 AM
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The gentleman looked to be a negro. Liberal, conservative? I also noticed no one jumped on him.
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 1:23:22 PM
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I am totally amazed at the acceptability of behaviors by some members of this forum. We will have tons of comments about an individual exercising his right to carry a weapon (not concealed). Would I do this? No! This obviously was legal since no actions were taken by the police.
Yet, these same members remain silent when legal voters are intimidated by Black Panthers at a voting place (and later charges dismissed by OB's Justice Dept.) or when union goons (with identifiable shirts) are present at a health care forum and openly intimidate those present.
This is the problem with this country. If you agree with what's going on, you are safe. When there is disagreement, the strategy is attack! attack! attack! These individuals are then called Joe the Plumber.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Soul searching for accuracy
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Date:
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8/18/2009 3:31:42 PM
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Architect: I searched and far and wide and the only reference I could see was an African American man that showed up to a rally in Arizona (an open-carry state so I assume it was legal). So I am unsure where the 17 people showing up to a Colorado rally came from. Probably the nutroots which like many internet sites are not very reliable. If in fact true, regardless of being legal I would opine it is not wise.
As for your other comments/questions:
"What would the readers across the political spectrum of this forum have said if a liberal activist had showed up armed at a rally outside an event where Pres. Bush was speaking against abortion of for the Iraq war?"
I would say the same thing, even if legal its not wise.
"What will our reaction be if at a future event the pro and anti factions let catcall turn into shouting then shoving then a dozen people laying on the ground dead, dying or injure." So far the only shoving and violence has been by Obama thugs and goons from SEIU. An interesting hypothetical but more likely to be done by union thugs than law-abiding citizens.
"How many of you think it is wise, or patriotic, or smart, or provocative to carry a loaded weapon to a political event? How many would do so?"
I think if its legal it is legal, but not the wisest thing to do unless you are a handicapped black Republican who may be afraid of being beaten up by the Obama goon squad.
"People, is this really what we want America to be?"
I could ask the same question about whether we want socialism, should the President establish snitch email addresses, should the White House send out spam emails supporting their political positions, should the government take over car companies and hand a portion over to the unions and so on. I think you are focused on the wrong things to be concerned about.....
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Soul searching for accuracy
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Date:
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8/18/2009 4:05:03 PM
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Poor Archie must be alittle tired from having to defend the rights of all Americans against the slanted views of the Right wing nuts. The incident occirred in Phoenix. Obama is on a 3 state visit including Arizona, Montana, and Colorodo. Just a slip up but the fact remains the guy was probably in the telescopic sights of more than one Secret Service agent. If he flinched or removed his AK 15 to pick his nose that would be the last nose he ever picked.
Legal or not, not a very smart thing to do. Kinda shows you the mentality of the Right.
And yes, I believe in the right to bear arms. I have also been a member of the NRA.
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surprisingly, the only injury known to have occurred at these town hall meetings, despite the legal presence of individuals with weapons was Mr. Gladney. Notice how little press coverage this gentleman received. He was Black AND conservative.....
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
There you go again....
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Date:
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8/18/2009 4:27:44 PM
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No mention of the wild inaccuracy of his post, just a blanket condemnation of the "right". Let's see, hundreds of thousands of people show up to townhalls and tea party's all over this country and one guy in one location with a legal gun (not an assault rifle as incorrectly reported) and it somehow reflects on the right. More to the point, the only violence occurred when Obama called out his goon squad to beat up disabled Republicans......
C'mon GF, you need to be more reasonable about this and stop with your gross misrepresentation of the "right". You are really starting to sound like the angry far left flailing about because they are beginning to realize that the vast majority of Americans are right/center right and they truly still represent a minority. Case in point, recent Gallup poll has more Americans self identifying themselves as conservative than liberal. A dramatic switch from less than a year ago. I know that's not you and I know you are more measured and thoughtful......
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 5:50:01 PM
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I don't want any private citizen showing up with a gun at a public forum whether they have a permit to carry or not. And I certainly don't want intimidation at the polls. Weren't the Black Panthers who did this arrested -- believe so. And as far as union people -- well, it should not be tolerated.
I'm not sure who these "Obama goons" are that you refer to. Perhaps you could be a little more specific. The man is the President of the US and as such is entitled to Secret Service protection. So who are the people that you are referring to?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Gallup Poll
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Date:
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8/18/2009 5:53:03 PM
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I saw that gallup Poll as well ... i believe it asked not matter who you voted for in the last election, how do you classify your political beliefs. 39% classified themselves as conservative to very conservative, while only 21% said the were liberal to very liberal ... with the other 40% saying they were moderate.
As such MM, you are correct that the nation is very much center/right. The last election was a variety of things, including the dislike of Bush and the Iraq war, but also mobilization of the black communities through Acorn making they think their answer is electing a black man no matter if you knew his beliefs or what he meant by change. There was also a number of people that voted for Obama as it would prove they are not racist and we are not a racisit nation. I agree it was historic, but that is as far as it goes. Now it is all policy and where he takes the country and it is the wrong direction.
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| Name: |
Lady
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| Subject: |
Soul searching
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Date:
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8/18/2009 6:22:47 PM
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Interesting point of view!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/26/AR2009072602189.html
URL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/26/AR2009072602189.html
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Hound, these 'black panthers'
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Date:
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8/18/2009 6:31:09 PM
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might have been charged.. but the United States Attorney General, Eric Holder, dismissed all of the charges.. Is this a cause for some concern, or at least questions?
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
There you go again....
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Date:
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8/18/2009 7:01:23 PM
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Martini, I apologize. You are correct as it is not a real assault weapon. Rather, it is just a semi automatic assault rifle. Flaunting rifles of this type, legal or not, is not typical of a civilized culture.
I would hate to be walking downtown Atlanta and find some dude on each street corner with his territory and assault rifle. Opps, sorry Hound...his or her assault rifle. I think we can agree that carrying such firearms is mostly an ego trip at a rally. Ones of these days, a group will decide to enforce their right of self defense and forcably remove the rifle. It will never end.
l
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
OK can we agree on this??
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Date:
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8/18/2009 7:33:50 PM
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Dudes openly carrying weapons (loaded or unloaded) at town hall meetings really bites!! That's intimidation of the worst kind, and I would be in their face. I have a legitmate carry permit, keep it in the truck and at home.. Certainly would not carry into Walmart, nor town hall meetings. On the other hand (4 fingers and a thumb), Black Panthers wielding clubs at voting stations are 'ookie dookie' with Eric Holder?? Go figure..
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It is not a level playing field. If this was all in reverse, we would NEVER hear the end of it. Conservatives are normally not "radical". There must be a good reason for the outrage and outburst. YES! I think it's called A THREAT AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS! It's about WE the people , FOR the people, BY the people. Tyranny is as close to slavery as you can get. Taxation by the government to the extremes that we are seeing is Tyranny. We seem to forget that we all came here to get away from this and our relatives have shed lots of blood and given up a lot in life for you to have this freedom. I'm not so quick to give in! If you don't like this country then there are some planes leaving for Europe, Canada ,Iran, France etc.. This is America love it or leave it !
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hound, these 'black panthers'
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:47:56 PM
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Probably so, unless there just wasn't any evidence that they were doing anything. Charges get dismissed on criminals all the time -- doesn't mean they aren't guilty, just not enough evidence to go to trial.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You just love
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:51:46 PM
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that rhetoric, don't you? You must be mainlining Rush Limbaugh.
People like you are part of the problem -- you can't think for yourself and the only thing you can do is trade in fear.
I'm sorry, but that kind of mindless rhetoric just disgusts me.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/18/2009 9:58:51 PM
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I am referring to members of the SEIU that began attending the townhall meetings after Obama sent his blast email calling for his supporters to flood the townhalls. The White House also said and I quote, "We will punch back twice as hard", a comment directed at the passionate and sometimes rude attendees at meetings that did not like what they were hearing from their elected representative.
One of the SEIU goons beat up a handicapped black conservative outside a townhall meeting and was arrested. Others physically assaulted people trying to get into meetings. A Democrat party official was videotaped slapping a constituent at a meeting. SEIU members and supporters of Obamacare were allowed to half fill townhall meetings while ordinary citizens were forced to wait outside and then when they tried to get into a meeting they waited hours to attend SEIU thugs pushed and threatened them. Of course little of this made it on the government media but the one guy out of hundreds of thousands who attended teay party protests and townhalls.
Those are the goons to whom I refer. And I dare say that if Bush had done something one tenth as egregious as inciting violence against those that disagreed with his policies there would cries of outrage from the left, such is their hypocrisy.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
There you go again....
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Date:
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8/18/2009 10:08:04 PM
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As I said above it is not a good idea and not something I would do and since I don't know the person I can't opine whether it is an ego trip or wanting to make a point or what. However, you cast aspersion toward all the right becuase of this one event. Good judgment or not, this person did nothing illegal, there is no evidence anyone was threatend, carrying around rifles and handguns is only seen as scary in urban areas while the rest of flyover country actually feels safer knowing that someone is there that can defend them. So you need to obtain a broader perspective on how many people live outside large cities before defining civilized behavior according to your narrow definition.
What is not typical of civilized culture is the President of the United States inciting union thugs to beat up his opponents which is exactly what he did and is much more deserving of your condemnation than a peaceful citizen showing bad judgment.
I am curious about the quote, "Ones of these days, a group will decide to enforce their right of self defense and forcably remove the rifle. It will never end" What are you suggesting? If this person did not threaten anyone why would it be self defense to take away their private property just because you don't think they should have that right?
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Let's see,
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Date:
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8/18/2009 10:37:41 PM
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you voted against someone when you voted for o-BAMA, why didn't you just stay home? You blindly support o-BAMAcare, yet you demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about healthcare or the proposed legislation. You daily quote from liberal media sources as if you have heard the voice of the almighty. Do you really feel qualified to slam someone else?
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
There you go again....Martini
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:31:05 AM
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Martini, I, like you find the use of union goons and Black Panthers destestable. I am glad to see the dismantling of the White House e-mail site. It was so un American to set it up. I voted for Obama but I don’t drink Kool Aid. As I believe we both agree, neither party really offered the choice we wanted.
I find carrying semi automatic rifles in full view at a rally troubling. Let us assume a union goon squad is present at the same rally and they decide to disarm the gun carrier. Why you ask? They say it is self defense. But, all he is doing is exercising his 2nd Amendment Right you respond. The union goon leader says to Martini, we fear for our life. Ya hear me?? That is self defense. You have a problem??? Martini being a smart man who wants to live another day says to himself---- it sure is easier to argue on the Forum.
Next rally, the guy with the weapon brings some back up. No problem, it is legal. Opps, here comes the goon squad and guess what??? They heard Martini loud and clear. They want to exercise their 2nd Amendment Right. They each have semi auto rifles. All legal. Does this trouble you?? Where does it stop.
That was my point about self defense. Often, perception one may have is worse that the truth. Some will perceive that someone carrying a rifle in full view is a threat and will act in "self defense". We have learned over the past few years that not everyone with a rifle is sane.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Another voice
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Date:
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8/19/2009 7:46:53 AM
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who endlessly spouts rhetoric. You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 7:50:40 AM
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MM - it's a well known fact that Bush loaded his public speeches with Republicans. He frequently made his speeches to a military audience, knowing full well that the military would not challenge his views. So, I can't get too excited because Obama is asking his supporters to attend the town halls.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
So is this
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Date:
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8/19/2009 7:59:02 AM
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You can't argue with their success. Facts are a killer aren't they vs some newspaper writers opinion. :)
Look at it compared to both state and national averages. I think you will find the same true in other locations that have similar gun laws as Kennesaw.
Let me ask you, if you were a criminal would you commit a crime where you know most home owners, businesses or individuals have a gun or would you go somewhere else where that is not the case?
I appreciate your post of a reporters point of view, but these are facts.
http://www.homesurfer.com/crimereports/view/crime_report.cfm?state=GA&area=Kennesaw
URL: Crime in Kennesaw GA
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 8:13:26 AM
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But isn't the purpose of a town hall meeting to have discourse with constituents?
A speech is a speech. A town hall meeting should have a cross section of constituents so the politician can get feedback on the desires and concerns of ALL the citizens, not just the ones who agree with him or her.
On a different subject: The Senate race in California between Boxer and Fiorina (sp?) is going to be a doozie. I never thought anything about Boxer (other than she was a liberal California Democrat), until she went off on the General for his doing what all military are trained to do - show respect by answering "yes sir" or "yes ma'am". She exhibited in a really big way what is wrong with our politicians these days - that they no longer consider themselves servants of their constituencies, but the people are there to serve the politician.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 9:20:23 AM
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Of course all politicians love a friendly audience and frequently make speeches to them. I have never complained about that and I never mentioned Obama's townhall where it was clearly stacked in his favor. That is his perogative.
What bothers me about the way they did it in the other cases is they intentionally allowed SEIU members in the side door before opening it to the public. That to me violates the spirit of a townhall and if they were so animated on the left or in the union to support Obamacare then they would have come early to be first in line instead of holding back a thousand people until you half fill the townhall with plants. Talk about astroturfing.
I would hope you would agree that the President of the United States ought to be above mass email campaigns to union thugs and allowing the White House to incite violence, which is what they did very effectively. That is more in line with Hugo Chavez than the U.S.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
There you go again....Martini
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Date:
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8/19/2009 9:25:41 AM
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GF, reread my posts and you will see that I agree with you that it was not a good idea and not something I would not do. But the fact is that it was legal and there was no violence. Your hypothetical is interesting but it never happened and I frankly suspect that the union thugs would probably choose to beat up a handicapped person instead of trying ti disarm a citizen exercising their legal rights. I am glad that we agree on opposing the violence that did happen as a result of the White House and President Obama. By the way, I never opined about the Black Panthers but I agree that what they did was not only wrong but illegal. That the Holder Justice Department let them off the hook speaks more to their ethical lapses than anything else. The career attorneys prosecuting the case were stunned.......
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You have to Admit
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:03:29 PM
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that he makes a good point. If you are going to take a stand, you have to be prepared for the consquences. And if that means doing away with the metal detectors and letting Congressman and Senators defend themselves than so be it. It would be a refreshing change to have to walk the talk.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:08:18 PM
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I agree. I'd like to see every audience made up of a cross section of people, not those hand picked by a staff. I think it is great when people stand up and say what they think to the elected officials. I think everyone needs people to "keep it real" for them.
And you are right -- the race for Boxer's seat could get very, very interesting.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:10:38 PM
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You are right, I don't think the WH should ever incite violence.
On the other hand, one man's thug is another man's constituite.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Home for lunch
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:18:52 PM
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Crime in Kennesaw:
1/ The gun requirement was past in the 80's in reaction to some city (?Morton Grove?) passing a law outlawing guns. It has never been taken seriously or enforced. I know at least 2 people who now live or have lived in Kennesaw and neither owned nor desired to own a gun while in residence in that fair city.
2/ I couldn't retrieve your link to "Crime in...". Kennesaw today is a fairly upscale suburban community about 20-25 miles northwest of Atlanta. I'll bet if you checked the nearby towns (Adairsville, Woodstock, Buford, Cumming) with similar demographics but without such a gun requirement you will find very similar crime rates.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Goons not the Secret Service
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Date:
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8/19/2009 12:40:42 PM
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Any person worth their salt would disavow any constituent that acts in the way the SEIU acted. So far we have only heard the crickets chirping......
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Home for lunch
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Date:
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8/19/2009 2:46:32 PM
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nope ... kennesaw is the lowest.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Checked two
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Date:
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8/19/2009 2:50:47 PM
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Woodstock is a 3 out of a possible 5 and Buford is a 2.4 out of 5 ..... while Kennesaw is 4.3 out of 5
Looks like the guns win to keep crime low. :)
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Good Facts
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Date:
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8/19/2009 2:52:29 PM
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http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm
URL: Guns in Kennesaw
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You really need to check your facts before you post.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
As I said at the top
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Date:
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8/19/2009 10:12:25 PM
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Is this what we want America to be? It's time to cool it and really do that soul searching. We are going to destroy our nation unless the reasonable people begin to be heard above the babble of the extremes!
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