| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/24/2009 9:57:19 PM
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Not sure if any of you have ever listened to Herman Cain on the radio. I know he is on AM 750 in Atlanta. He is a very conservative black american (not african american ... he was born in the US so he is not african unless you conisder all blacks as africans).
He was sitting in for Bortz this morning so I was listening to him on my drive to the office sitting in Atlanta traffic.
He came up with an acronym for what he sees liberal democrats doing and I though he was right on the mark. He gave several example for each, but I will onle not a couple.
The acronym is S.I.N. ... :) and it stands for the following things that democrats are doing, especially about healthcare.
S = shift the topic. When confronted with difficult questions like the amount of spending all these government programs, they shift the subject to something else and normally start talking about Bush did this or that, he left a deficit, the Iraq war, etc ... rather than respond to the question and say what they are doing and why.
I = ignore the truth and facts. People are coming out against the tye of healthcare reform the dems are proposing. they held tea parties because of the taxes and massive government spending. But the dems dismiss the facts that people don't like what is going on and try to minimize it and say it is not really representative. Yet when liberals protested the Iraq war, they were quick to embrace and say that was represetative of america.
N = name calling. When they have people disagree with them or the tea parties or town hall meetings ... they start with the attacks and name calling trying to make them out to be extreme out of touch people. You saw this with Barney Frank the other day when women asked a very intelligent question and he responded with "what planet do you spend you time on". Is that a way for an elected officiial respond to a tax paying american? There have been very specific name calling that has been over the top and suprising that even democrats would stoop so low.
I think Herman nailed it.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/24/2009 10:19:28 PM
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Funny thing about the woman who questioned B Frank the other day..............she was a Lyndon LaRouche Democrat.........
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/24/2009 10:40:29 PM
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I = ignore the truth and facts. Like whether or not the Obama administraton is trying to remove "In God We Trust" from coins and currency. Oops ... I guess I am guiltiy of S = shift the topic. :)
N = name calling. Yep .... the dems are really good at the name calling .... "Messiah" .... "Traitor" ... "Socialist" ... "Destroyer of the Constitution" ... yep ... those Dems are scoundrels :)
There is plenty of S.I.N. on both sides ...
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 6:35:29 AM
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To the first ... yes, you and archie are the best at shifting the topic. Instead of respond, you normally come back with, well what about this or that. Many times from years ago. Irrelavant. You would not last a day in court. A judge would throw you out.
On two ... it is not name calling if it is correct. Some of Obama loyal followers called him the messiah, others then picked up on it. Read Obama's books, he is a socialist. I am not sure he would think that is negative. That is his beliefs. his policies demonstrate it. What else would you call them?????
I am at least please that you feel the word socialist is an insult or name calling. There is hope for you. Now why not open your eyes and see that is what Obama is giving us and the "change" he promised. Why else would we need 37 Czars.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 8:26:31 AM
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But no S.I.N. for those enlightened "independents" or "middle of the road" types that shift their views depending upon which way the wind is blowing or who has the prettier face or is more eloquent in reading from a teleprompter. I will take my core conservative principals over that any day.
Like I told someone when they asked about slander, it isn't slander if what you say is true. I don't know your definition of a socialist but under the common definition you can make a very strong argument that Obama is one. If you consider that an insult, so be it. Its why a lot of independents don't want to be called liberals (even though they really are) and why liberals want to be called progressives. Most Americans are center right to right and view liberals negatively. Sadly, they were duped by the Messiah (yes, his acolytes gave him that name, not us) into believing he was somehow not who he really was.
That hopey-changey thing just isn't what they expected, hence the free fall in approval.......
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 8:52:10 AM
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You know, you claim to be centrist but your postings on this forum surely seen to be those of a left-winger. I'd be curious whether you could point to any of your posts where you have defended anything the right has done or advocated.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 9:01:45 AM
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It has been my experience that 'centrists' and 'middle-of-the-roaders' are just folks who can't make up their mind what they stand for.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 10:35:48 AM
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I call myself an Independent, not a D or an R. My view is easy to determine, I am for the least amount of Government, be it social or fiscal. If you call it centrist - fine, wavering - fine. I call it my beliefs, small Government is good, big Government is bad. The Government should stay out of both my wallet and my sandbox.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 11:51:04 AM
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Being a life-long conservative, I agree with your beliefs.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Definitions?centrist?middle ?
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Date:
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8/25/2009 3:23:08 PM
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-Based on the above posts, seems to be a need to discuss definitions, especially what people are throwing around about independents.
-As an "independent" I take a little offense at being defined as one who can't make up his mind, or goes with the wind, etc.
-So here are a few definitions as I understand them;
-Socialist: classic definition is one who believes that the means of production should not be owned privately but should be owned by the government. Since banks, car companies, etc are now seen by some as being owned by the government, that government could now be called, at least partially, socialist; and those people who like that idea and want to see more of it can definitely be called socialists.
-Communist: In a communist system not only does teh government own the means of production but it owns everything, there is no private property. We haven't got too many people on the left advocating that because our socialists still want to own things, it's how they get these things that is interesting.
-Statist: this is what a lot of people are now calling the present administration, cuz "socialist" has too many negative connotations in the minds of most citizens. A statist believes teh government, or state, should not necessarily own the means of production but should at least "control" it thru laws, regulations, etc., to ensure that the friuts of that production are directed/distributed to the benefit of teh state as the state's administrtion see fits.
-Independent: in our sense, meaning not belonging to either the dem or repub party, or completely aligned with the platforms of those parties. An independent is not necessarily a middle-of-the-roader or wishy-whashy as stated in some above posts. There are many kinds of independents, because their beliefs systems are more complex and varied, or at least stray out of a party box. For example, I'm an independent who is generally: 1)a fiscal conservative (just enough federal taxes for defense, interstate high-ways, social safety-net --but not kingsize beds, etc); 2) a national security conservative seeing the military to be used for defense and securing national interests, but those national interests are to be aligned with conservative politics, thus no foreign nation building and no empire building; 3)a personal freedoms liberal, I don't want the government in my bedroom or anyone else's, nor looking at my emails, nor listening to my phonecalls, etc. 4) a cultural moderate who believes as a society we should have a wide spectrum of arts, sciences, education that search for progress in many diverse directions, --yet understands the need for a self-discipline that protects our personal and national belief systems,... thus stretch our minds but don't view libertine excesses as progressive thought. 5) etc, 6) etc and so on
-Because an independent's ideas don't match a party platform doesn't mean the independent has not thought through all the pros and cons of an issue. In most cases he/she has done more independent thought on issues than have party members. Most party members are spouting party talking points within minutes of hearing them on news outlets, sometimes without ever questioning them; independents on the other hand, because they are often suspicious of both parties, have to usually figure out their positions on an issue by themselves. Whereas a party (either dems or repubs in this case) can't understand how a woman can be both pro-feminist and yet anti-abortion, an independent understands because he/she knows that while these two issues are "characteristically" similar, they are "essentially' different.
-So to recap, definitions that are often in the mind of the speaker are often different in the minds of the listeners, and often both of these are different from what's in the dictionary. ---so don't call us independents...well, just say nice things about us :)
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 3:51:36 PM
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MrHodja ... I'm not going to go back and find the posts .. but there are many things that I support/believe that would fall in line with Republicans .... I want a strong military and support our troops and veterans .... I'm not a member of the NRA but I think law-abiding citizens should have the right to own and carry guns, except in places where it doesn't make sense (airports, courtrooms, etc). I support the death penalty and think the appeals process is too long. I think we desperately need tort reform. I think unions served a great purpose during the Industrial Revolution but they have far out-lived their usefulness and have in fact been the main cause of the destruction of U.S. manufacturing. I could go on and on ... but I don't think it would do much good. Many on the extremes (right and left) seem to have the attitude that "you're either with us or against us" metality. I promise you, there are liberals who would consider me a right-wing nutjob.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Definitions?centrist?middle ?
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Date:
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8/25/2009 4:03:50 PM
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You left out one definition which should be mentioned...fascism...a government that advocates nationlism, a centralized and dictatorial regime, severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of opposition. Mussolini was a fascist.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 4:17:13 PM
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We are very like-minded, although I consider myself conservative (as opposed to "a conservative").
Thanks for the clarification - it may well be that the reason you appear to be defending the left is that the right introduces more issues - and more forcefully - to debate on this forum than the left. Maybe that is because the right is currently "down" and fighting to get back up. Maybe it is just because the right is very outspoken.
I always harp on logic and reason -- a boss a long time ago had a motto..."hit them squarely between the eyes with logic and reason and they will fall for it every time". And that is what I believe as well. If it is logical and reasonable, I will support it. But as I have said several times before (and no, neither am I willing to go back and look up just where on the forum), what I see happening with our Government and country now is neither logical nor reasonable.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 4:56:17 PM
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MrHodja .. I can't/don't cal myself conservative because of some of the other things I believe/support ... the most glaring of which is probably the fact that I am Pro-Choice (not pro-abortion .. just believe it's not my decision to make for others) .. I also am probably much more willing to help poor kids than many conservatives, who have a valid point that many poor kids are in the state they are in because their parents make bad decisions (drugs, absentee fathers, etc) .. I just think we should help the kids anyway .... not a big soapbox issue for me, just part of my belief system. There are others .. so I just consider myself a centrist. The fact that some here view "centrist" as a negative thing .. well, they are entitled to their opinion.
I also agree with you on the reason and logic thing ... that is why I enjoy engaging with WW ... and proceed cautiously when taking on MM. :)
While I never argue for a position that I don't support ... I admit that sometimes I will present my opinion on this board in a much stronger manner than I would in casual conversation. I have certainly posted some things here that I later wished I had worded differently.
Also, it tends to irritate me when someone/anyone tells me that I have to think/believe a certain way or I am thereby by default "un-American", "not a patriot", etc. And irritation makes me argumentative.
A few of the many reasons I am .... Just A Guy. :)
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So since you fall in line with republican that they support our troops and want a strong military ... I guess you agree that the democrats do not from their action and words. You used that as a specific example as to an area you align with republicans ... so you can not feel that the democrats do as well.
Thanks for admitting that.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Not Odd ...
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Date:
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8/25/2009 5:55:33 PM
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... that you would take what I posted and end up with that kind of twisted logic.
If anyone else agrees with WW on this one ... please let me know and I will post further ... otherwise ... I'll chalk this up to the typical WW stuff. Thanks.
And by the way WW ... this completely clears up any question of whether or not you are an attorney ... only an attorney could twist and warp something and come up with that result.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Well said JaG
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Date:
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8/25/2009 6:08:41 PM
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I think most of the posters on this forum think that you, Hound, GF, me and a few others, who tend to take a centrist position and are willing to consider all sides of an issue, are flaming liberals only because relative to their scary and extreme rightwing views we are.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 6:11:51 PM
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The world is not black and white and one doesn't have to term ones self "conservative" to have generally conservative values and opinions. You probably have figured out that I don't drink anyone's kool-ade, but offer instead my own opinions and sometimes quote someone else who put into words what I was already thinking.
Cheers....
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Well said JaG
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Date:
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8/25/2009 6:24:03 PM
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Every now and then you come up with a little logic (yes, that was a complement, even though most of the time we don't agree), but GF throws little stink bombs, then runs away without backing anything up. Hound just spent too much time in DC. I was lucky to have only spent my four years in the five-sided funny farm, then managed to get the heck out of Dodge. I've lived the DC life and I've lived the life of a normal citizen. While those in DC think the rest of the country are just a bunch of rubes, it is those "rubes" that keep DC employed. They seem to forget that with some regularity.
Now, it seems to me that most of the time when the right criticizes something on this forum that the present administration and democratic Congress does, your only answer is to point out that Bush did it as well (or worse). Why don't you try this: accept that I for one agree that Bush made some serious errors during his presidency, and when the Republicans had the Executive and Legislative branches they overspent. Now, with that out of the way, please try to debate the current administration and Congress' actions on the merits of their deeds (or misdeeds) and its potential effect on the long term good of the country, instead of just saying "well, George did it too".
Nasredin Hodja
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Your very clear words
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Date:
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8/25/2009 7:48:06 PM
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... you attack me for picking up on exactly the words you said. My point is that you picked support of the troops as how you align with republicans ... if you believed that democrats supported them equally, then how is it that you pick that as a way you align with republicans.
I don't have a problem if you want to change your statement.
Actually I do not care at all, because you are so biased it gives me a good laugh to see you try to point out how middled of the road you are.
Was it you or archie that said you did not vote "for" Obama, you voted "against" McCain. But you can ONLY vote "for" someone. If I was you, I would be embarassed and ashamed to admit it as well.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Your very clear words
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Date:
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8/25/2009 8:08:26 PM
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To use your logic ... you think that only one party or the other can support the troops ... can be for or against unions ... can be for or against guns ... my belief is that member of both parties can hold those positions ... as MrHodja posted ... nothing is black and white .... it is various shades of gray.
The items that I posted I think show that I support/believe in many things that typical Republicans support/believe in ... I never said that many Democrats couldn't/didn't support believe in the same things.
Nobody else has posted saying they support your analysis of my post ... so until that happens ... I again say that this is just typical WW stuff ....
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 9:42:33 PM
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MrHodja ... I whole-heartedly agree with two of your most recent points ... "the world is not black and white" ... and that logic and reason should rule.
I could not agree more ... I always enjoy your posts ... please keep them up. I also very much enjoy the posts of Yankee and MM ... whether I agree with them or not (and I agree with Yankee more often than MM) :)
Obviously I am a fan of Hound and Architect ... but that's just my liberal bias showing through. :)
Lastly ... I agree that probably the worst thing for our country are kool-aid drinkers ... whether they are drinking kool-aid from the left or the right.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Your very clear words
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Date:
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8/25/2009 9:51:16 PM
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Let me put it to you this way ... Republicans believe in Health Care reform ... I align closer to those views. But both parties believe in healthcare reform, but I do not say that I align with democrats on health care.
I do not doubt that "most" people in both parties agree on supporting the troops, but far differently. So at least you can say that you align with how the republicans support our troops vs the democrats. But it still says that the democrats do not have the same commitment and support for the troops as the republicans. If you did not see it that way and agree with that ... how can you say you align on one side or the other if they are equal.
Yes ... you would never want to go against me in court or a deposition.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Your very clear words
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Date:
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8/25/2009 10:32:15 PM
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Health Care/Health Insurance reform is a wedge issue ... the difference between what D's and R's want is enormous.
As for supporting the troops ... where is the big difference between D's and R's? What is it that you think R's want to do for troops/veterans that D's don't?
If I wanted to list the issues that most glaringly divide Dems and Repubs .. I would have posted about abortion, health insurance/health care reform, global warming/ecological issues, etc.
My original post was to point out the issues in which my opinions beliefs are compatible with Repubs ... I never said those opinions/beliefs were opposed to Dems ...
And you are right ... I would never want to face you in court or in a depostion ... since I never again want to face ANY attorney in court or in a deposition. My experience has been that there isn't a lot of "justice" in our Justice System ... from my experience the only winners are the lawyers.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 10:35:36 PM
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With regard to black and white....
I work in the Information Assurance (aka computer security) business. My mentor described his approach to security this way: If what you think a system needs is five pounds of security, you ask the Program Manager to provide 10, after pushback from him (that you always get)begrudgingly adjust the amount to eight, fight like he!! for 6 or 7, and when you think he has provided 5, accept it and allow the system to operate.
I believe it is kind of that way for the right and left. Lurking behind the apparently non-compromising persona is probably a reasonable human being who is pushing hard for 10 pounds of left or right, but in the final analysis would be satisfied with something less than total left or right.
Not speaking for anyone else on the forum, just a hunch.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Herman Cain - Atlanta
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Date:
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8/25/2009 11:36:41 PM
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Hodja ... years ago I was also in Info Technology ... I remember one of our core ideas ... on any given project ... you could spend $100,000 making 99% of the system correct ... and another $500,000 trying to get that last 1%. I'm sure today you can make those numbers $100 Million on the 99% ... and $500 Millon on the last 1%.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
One last point
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Date:
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8/26/2009 6:17:08 AM
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then we can drop this.
You have made the point I was trying to make to you JAG. We welcome your alignment with republicans that are different than democrats because that would make you a centrist. Bust you can't say that you align with republicans on a particular issue and then say there is no difference between republicans and democrats. You used troop support as an area that you align with republicans ... so I was pointing outh that if you align on the republican side, that you must feel that they support troop more or differently than democrats.
But all you have done is say they both do. That is fine if you believe that, but you can't use that as an example as to why you are so middle of the road if you feel both sides of the isle are the same .... you need to look at the more polarizing issues and say the ones you side with the liberals and which you say you align with republicans.
Now do you understand the point?
You would be fun to depose.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
I just love it.....
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Date:
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8/26/2009 8:21:36 AM
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When people refer to themselves as "Centrists."
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Oh, so now you're a hero??
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Date:
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8/26/2009 11:32:15 AM
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Why don't you admit that you didn't leave DC on your own accord -- that you were reassigned by the AF? You try to make it sound like you did this of your own accord.
Did you ever stop and wonder why the Military Services rotate their promising officers through DC? Perhaps so they could learn how the government operates?
I don't apologize for the government. It operated just as stupidly under Clinton as it did under Bush. Just as stupidly under Reagan as it did under Carter, thanks to the policies set forth by any given Administration. I'm not blind to the government, but I also understand how well it functions despite the politics.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Oh, so now you're a hero??
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Date:
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8/26/2009 12:17:13 PM
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Actually I could have stayed, and for my Air Force career it would have been better (there are LOTS of choice assignments in the area), but as a young, lowly O-3 with two young kids and a wife with Lord and Taylor tastes, it was more to move on.
My point is that working in and knowing how the government really operates is good, but not to exclusion. Folks need to get out and live with the masses....your attitudes and defensiveness regarding government workers - in my opinion - might be tempered a bit if you had spent more time living among the common folk and not exclusively running up and down 95/395.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 4:31:31 PM
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and I believe your analysis applies to you and me. And I will name names. I believe it probably suits Hound, JaG, Yankee, Lady, GF and a few others. It does not apply to Wix, lamont, MM, WW and several others. They in their words have made it clear they would rather fail than compromise. They would have it their way or the highway and nation be d**ned. Someone asked for a definition of centrist. You have just given a pretty good description. Some of us are a 10 to the left on some issues and a 10 to right on some and somewhere in between on most.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 5:38:14 PM
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Whoa, lets not go too far, now.
I have never done, advocated, or supported anything 10 pounds to the left.
And I am not sure I agree with your list of names, especially with regard to GF, Lady, and MM. I find it interesting that you group all the people you agree with into the reasonable category and the ones you disagree with in the unreasonable category.
And I indeed hope that Obama fails to implement his agenda, because he is an embarrassment in the realm of international relations, and has no freaking clue how to run an economy. It may show some short-term improvement, but the result will be long-term failure.
And make sure you look closely at what I just said -- that he fails TO IMPLEMENT HIS AGENDA. In my opinion if he succeeds in implementing his agenda we as a country fail.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 6:35:03 PM
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Did you not notice that you and yankee were included in the "reasonable" list. Not because you and he generally agree with me but because you usually don't automatically belittle me for for my opinions and seem willing to consider the possibility that there is another side.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 6:45:51 PM
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Of course you and I are reasonable....:>).
And Yankee is as well. However, my statement certainly applies to the rest of your lists.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 7:47:22 PM
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Put me on the list of those not willing to meet in the middle...if you compromise your principles, you really don't have any.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 9:49:20 PM
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From reading your posts we probably agree on the issues to the Ivory Soap level. However, in select situations one can compromise without compromising one's principles. Its a matter of either staying at loggerheads indefinitely until one or the other has a perfect victory, or moving forward in an imperfect manner - and I guess on issues not that important to me I will bend in order to make at least some forward progress. There are other issues that there will be no compromise on at all.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/26/2009 11:17:55 PM
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And if you aren't even willing to consider the other side ... you aren't principled .. you are narrow-minded. You can eventually disagree .. but to not even consider the other side .... narrow-minded plain and simple.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/27/2009 8:42:56 AM
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How do you know I haven't considered the other side...that's how I developed my principles.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/27/2009 8:47:20 AM
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That is my point...if a person is in the middle, most likely the issue is not important to them. Principles are important.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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excellent thoughts Mr. H
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Date:
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8/27/2009 9:01:51 AM
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Sounds like we three think for ourselves (vice drinking someone else's kool-ade), but just come to occasionally differing conclusions.
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