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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Obama Losing Independents
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Date:
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9/8/2009 5:28:12 PM
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everywhere but on this forum. Recent CNN poll has 53% of independents disapproving of his job overall and it is dropping rapidly. 53% disapprove of his handling of health care. Only 25% approve of his handling of the economy.
As I said before, they are beginning to realize they were duped into believing he was a post-partisan moderate and are now realizing in droves that he is a died-in-wool liberal with statist beliefs. I wonder when our alleged "independents" that post here will join the majority or whether they will defend him to the end......hence, my belief that many independents are really liberals but they lack the guts to admit it.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Obama Losing Independents
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Date:
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9/8/2009 5:57:09 PM
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MM,
-reference your above comments on independents...
-si-i-i-i-i-i-i-igh, why do I let you bate me like this? Anyway, ...as an independent I guess I must respond....because we were not "duped", as you suggest (or perhaps we just "acted stupidly")
-IN my below post on Obama's school talk (which I'm assuming you read cuz you posted below me in that thread),I discussed how independents (admittedly the group that got Obama elected) were having a tough time supporting him
-Now those independents that voted for Obama didn't do so cuz they were "Duped" as you may think. Those independents voted for a number of reasons, among them the fact that the conservatives/Republicans for the previous 6 years spent and ran up deficits like teh proverbial drunken sailors or....dems. Given the choice between Republicans that act like democrats or democrats that really wanted to act like socialists (am I being redundant here?), these independents chose one among only bad choices they were presented. So let's drop teh "duped" word, unless we apply it to 2004 as well as 2008. Please, be nicer to us. As a group we are a very sensitive bunch :)
-Now,if y'all will indulge me, I copy again my below post on what I know alot of independents are feeling....
from below post:
-But I, as an independant (some still say "wishy-washy"), was willing to wait and see what the guy says (Note: Obama in his school address), because almost whatever he says has to be inspirational for kids in inner cities and rural areas where education is in shambles. BUt what i was concerned about as expressed in below emails was the second paragraph of teh original lesson plans, --the "what can we do for our president" stuff.
-It's true that None of us may ever know if or how his speech may have changed because of teh hubbub; but it is equally true that we all DO know that the the lesson plan changed because of teh hubbub.
-This is just one incident of political whip lash, and, by most accounts, a small one. However, what is causing growing concern among the independents I know and talk with is the growing accumulation of these single "not-to-worry" incidents, that as a group is starting to cause alot of the people "to worry." Examples: the "I apologize for America" tour thru Europe; the "America is not a Christian nation" tour thru the mid-east; the kisssy face tour through South America; the we can't intrude in teh Iran unrest, but we can intrude in teh Isreali unrest"; the "no-read" vote on cap and trade; the public takeover of auto companies that disregarded long standing bankruptcy procedures for bond owners in favor of unions claims; the czars of unvetted people of questionable character and loyalties; an untennable healthcare bill in content to be pushed thru in a no-read' vote; etc, etc, etc,
-I honestly want to believe that he and his administration can be good for America, but I doubt it more and more every day.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Yankee, a serious post
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Date:
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9/8/2009 7:10:35 PM
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We all wanted change in the last election. I was, and am, sick of the GOP for lack of leadership and influence of moderate/liberal republicans.. I held my nose and voted for McCain, fearing the worst with the alternative.. My worse fears have been confirmed..
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Obama Losing Independents
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Date:
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9/9/2009 8:28:21 AM
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First of all I am not trying to bait you or start a debate for the sake of argument. I am truly mystified by so-called independents and quite frankly skeptical of many of them really being independent. Let me be perfectly clear, I don't believe ALL independents were duped. I am convinced that a good many them are really liberals that just don't want to admit what they are. They weren't duped because Obama/Reid/Pelosi are exactly the kind of politicians they like.
Here's my issue with many (not all) self identified "independents". They lack cohesive core values. And by cohesive I mean they are all over the place. They oppose government in certain of their pet peeve areas but are all for an intrusive over-reaching government in other areas. They oppose certain kinds of confiscatory taxes but are all for other kinds of taxes that suit their personal opinions on this or that issue. It's not that they don't believe in things, its just that their beliefs are discordant and belie any core values. Now these independents will tell you they are the wise ones, they are above ideology. But the fact is they simply have their own ideology, the party of the me, the here and the now. Who I vote for depends on the direction that the winds are blowing, who's up and who's down, who's views fit my current set of opinions, etc.
I have core conservative beliefs that I hold because I have thoroughly examined the issues and have come to believe based on facts, a study of history, logical interpretation and analysis that conservative values are what is best for our country and what our founding fathers intended. Other of our liberal posters will call that mindless but nothing can be further from the truth. That is why on every issue I present facts (those stubborn things) that refute their emotion-based views. This usually results in insults and ad hominem attacks when they are devastated by the truth but I don't mind. It's just that Independents (and especially liberals) believe so much that isn't so (paraphrasing Reagan).
As for your point about disillusionment with Republicans and their profligate spending as justification for your vote for Obama or whatever liberal politician, it simply proves my point about what it wrong with independents. You were angry about Republican's spending and so you lashed out and elected a bunch of leftists that are now destroying our financial well being for a generation or more (and I would point out as predicted by so many on the right during the election). Explain to me how that makes sense?!?!? If you were so against the deficits how on earth can you justify voting for Obama knowing he had a Dem-controlled Congress to work with? It makes no sense, it is discordant. So either you weren't really opposed to the outrageous spending or the deficits, only what Bush chose to spend the money on or what you did makes absolutely zero sense. It is the old saw of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you had core beliefs on the subject like I do you would have held your nose and voted for McCain simply because he was the much lesser of the two evils. If you had those core beliefs what you would do is fight for true conservative Republicans because finding a Democrat that is a fiscal conservative is hopeless. But instead you and many others made an illogical decision, or alternatively controlling the size, scope and breadth of the federal government is not really a core belief. Which is it because there is no reasonable third conclusion?
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
Yankee, a serious post
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Date:
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9/9/2009 9:40:42 AM
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Husker,that is the best description of how I voted that I've heard yet.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
And by "you" in the above
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Date:
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9/9/2009 10:22:38 AM
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post I mean independents, not you personally as I don't know how you voted. Sorry for the lack of clarity...
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
And by "you" in the above
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Date:
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9/9/2009 11:56:00 AM
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MMan,
-I enjoyed your above post on your thinking about independents and about your own core beliefs. But then again, I enjoy most of your posts.
-It would be great to discuss your above thoughts in detail, however, we all recognize this forum format is too restrictive to allow for detailed discussion on all the points you made. Overlooking the lake, sharing a table with "Jack" and "Johnny" would be the best way to discuss all this stuff.
-Some issues would lend themselves to agreement right away, --or at least soon after we downed a few. For example, teh idea that independents accept confiscatory taxes in some areas but not in others,.. with the implication that conservatives do not. You're right about the first part, ...but ...I believe every conservative does that too. The constitution allows the government to tax. Most conservatives believe in taxes for defense, for commerce, for government, etc. It just becomes a matter of degree, breadth, depth, --and those boundaries are never clear, thus the constant national discussion. Is welfare good for teh social stabilization of teh country? If so, how much? etc. etc., all these are issues that lend themselves to both agreement at their core but disagreement at their edges.
-True, as you state, that our founding fathers are often thought of as conservatives and that their beliefs are good ones to adhere to, ..and I agree that teh founding fathers can be considered as"conservatives" in some areas, ---yet, ...the Declaration of Independence was anything but conservative; Jeffereson's treatise on religious freedom was anything but conservative; Madison's bill of rights was anything but conservative; Franklin's "everything" was anything but conservative. These men were very liberal for their times and even very liberal relative many areas we think of as conservative today. Even Thomas Jefferson exhorts from teh grave not to blindly follow the thoughts of our forefathers but rather to constantly reevaluate them and when necessary change them. One of my most enjoyable activities when I lived in DC was to walk teh Jefferson Memorial at dusk. Inside the memorial are four or five quotes engraved on teh walls. One speakes directly to this issue of the impact of teh founding fathers down through the centuries. I can't remember the exact words but it goes something like this, ---as we can't expect a man to wear the suit that fit him as a child, we can't expect a society to mindlessly remain under teh dictates of it barbarous ancesters. What that quote meant to me (in addition to justification of the American revolution) is that it is the responsibility of every citizen to constantly evaluate the applicability of traditional laws relative modern needs, -- a sacred task indeed.
-Finally (cuz I'm getting a little lengthy here) let me just make a few comments on how I view independents. You may be right that a lot of independents are closet liberals who don't have the fortitude to admit it, ...but ...if that is true...then I think you would agree that it is only logical to also assume that alot of independents are closet conservatives who don't have the fortitude to admit it. Both assertions may be true for some independents ,but I don't think they apply to most of teh independents that I know.
-Rather than thinking about independents being in the middle on a spectrum between liberals and conservatives, or between Democrats or Republicans, most independents think of ourselves as being a different group (or group of groups) altogether. Rather than thinking of politics as a linear spectrum, we think of a triangle with a different group at each corner of teh triangle. That way we don't see ourselves as a group torn between two other groups , but rather, we see ourselves as a single group "different" from the other two groups and thus having a different set of core values. Or maybe even better yet, think of a Venn diagram where 1) all three circles have overlaping beliefs in a central area, and then 2) where each circle has a shared area of beliefs with each of the other two circles, and then finally, 3) where each circle has its own area of beliefs which it does not share with either of teh other two circles. I believe thinking of U.S. pollitics as a linear spectrum between two diametrically opposed camps is too simplistic to properly address and solve the issues we face.
-HOwever, although thinking about politics as I described above probably leads to a more refined understanding of different belief systems, the reality is that the size of teh three groups is grossly distorted with independents being about 15-20% of teh voters and each of teh other two being 40%. This disparity in size means that although independents can hold their own in logical discussions and political discourse, they do not have significant power in the voting booth. So in elections where independents can turn the tide, the eventual winners see the independents as "enlightened" , while the losers see the indepndents as "spoilers" or perhaps even "duped." In truth though, we seee ourselves as frustraed because we don't undertand how thinnking people can follow either one of these two groups of charlatans.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
And by "you" in the above
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Date:
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9/9/2009 12:17:32 PM
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I like your suggestion although I am partial to McCallen single malt, the older the better. :-)
You're right there is too much there to respond to except to say that I was specific about "confiscatory" taxation. True conservatives support limited government which by its nature involves limited taxation to support only those functions truly authorized by the Constitution (i.e., national defense, infrastructure, etc.). All the other rights belong the states and the people. The beauty of that is if liberals want a socialist paradise they can have it in any state they want to control. As we have seen in California, the northeast and upper midwest that doesn't seem to work out too well for them.
As for your statements about the founding fathers I could not disagree more. True conservatives will find much more in all those documents that align with their beliefs of controls on the power and scope of government, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the right to religious freedom and individual liberty. Maybe we have a different definition of conservative?
Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society both do a very nice presentation of these documents in light of the modern conservative movement. I highly recommend them.
Perhaps next summer we can convene a Lake Martin Federalist Society meeting and over fine single malt scotch and an excellent cigar we can try to solve the world's problems. I am sure not much of substance will be accomplished but it would be very entertaining and enlightening. Heck, I would even invite GF and Hound although I am not sure she would enjoy either.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Thoughtful posts, guys.
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Date:
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9/9/2009 7:36:26 PM
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Been thinking about yank's venn diagram discussion.. Interesting from an academic perspective and provides some justification how we categorize our political bent.. I consider my beliefs to be generally aligned with conservative values, but not totally, so I'm outside the conservative circle and overlap with some liberals and independents in Venn diagrams.. So the dilemma comes in the voting booth.. 'am I mostly in this guy/gals Venn circle or mostly outside the other candidate's?' When we are faced with 2 moderate positions, the circles overlap to the extent it could be coin toss.. But if you have a radical liberal Democrat and a wishy washy moderate Republican, you hold your nose and vote the largest portion of your circle.. That's why McCain got my vote last November.. alas..
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
I disagree
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Date:
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9/9/2009 8:46:30 PM
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Your last sentence is as follows:
"In truth though, we seee ourselves as frustraed because we don't undertand how thinnking people can follow either one of these two groups of charlatans."
If I understand what you are trying to say, conservatives and liberals don't think...only independents. Additionally, you say that conservatives and liberals are pretenders to having particular knowledge or abilities. I really didn't know that independents/moderates had this view.
As a conservative, I think quite often and quite clearly. I certainly don't pretend to have knowledge and abilities greater than any person with average intelligence, but I do have strongly held beliefs that I think are what is best for America. One thing is for sure, I don't have to analyze where I fit in the 'circle world' before I vote.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
I disagree
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Date:
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9/9/2009 10:34:55 PM
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AU67,
-In the quote you were offended by above, I placed teh "thinking" "shortcoming" not on you, but on me as an independet. What I said was that I and many other independents "..are frustrated because we don't understand...". then I went on to call you "thinking" people. We don't "understand." I didn't say we were right and you were wrong, nor did I say we think correctly and you don't. All I said is that most of us don't "understand" ...and truely I don't.
-I find it hard to understand how an individual Republican or Democrat can believe all teh planks in their party platforms. I also find it hard to understand how a member of one party can not find a plank or two to support in the other party's platform.
-now once some party member believes that he/she does not support all teh planks in his/her party platform, ..or ...can support some of teh planks in the other party's platform, then that person is thinking like an independent and eventually might start to act like one.
-Personally, I find it hard to understand why teh Dems can count on 90+% of teh black vote, or the union vote,or the gay vote, or the aetheist vote, or teh other etc votes. I find it equally hard to understand how the Republicans can count on 90+% of teh evangelical Christian vote, or teh gun toters (at least teh legal ones) vote, or teh etc votes. Are there no gun toting aetheists out there? Are there no evangelical union members?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Exactly!
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Date:
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9/9/2009 10:37:53 PM
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That's one of my biggest rubs about independents. They see virtue in lacking clarity. They really have no core values, only a mishmash of beliefs that are all over the place. What they see as nuanced is in my mind foggy at best and more likely at times wildly confused (i.e., I am mad about the Bush deficits so I vote for Obama even though any reasonable person knew he was going to be much, much worse).
You may not agree with my conservative principals but they are fact-based, well thought out, carefully considered, tested with historical and current events and have stood the test of time (i.e., they actually work versus liberal ideas which have never worked but make them feel good because they tried and its really their intent that matters, not the end result). Independents want to claim some moral high ground because they are not ideological but in fact they are just as ideological, its just they have created their own discordant ideology based on who knows what.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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Exactly!
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Date:
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9/10/2009 9:22:28 AM
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Lacking clarity? I view myself as closer to Libertarian than either Dem or Repub. My vision is simple (you can call it simplistic if you wish - won't bother me) - I WANT SMALL GOVERNMENT. How is that lacking clarity? The Government should NOT be redistributing my money and should NOT be trying to force your morals on me.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Libertarian not independent
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Date:
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9/10/2009 11:00:02 AM
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If you are a Libertarian you are not an independent under my definition so relax. Libertarians have core beliefs that go beyond the limitations in government desired by the modern conservative movement. Many of your core beliefs on fiscal issues and the proper role of government align with mine although you may take them a step further. On social issues we probably disagree more than we agree.
Who I am referring to are those who take an alleged moral high ground and refuse to identify themselves with any particular ideology. Although as I have often said, many are liberals in disguise and as Yankee rightly pointed out many may also be conservatives in disguise.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Not quite Libertarian either
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Date:
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9/10/2009 11:54:19 AM
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I do not agree 100% with the Libertarians either - I do feel that we need to have a strong border and limited immigration, so I guess that throws me back into no mans' land. I vote for the individual who I feel is least likely to destroy our great country (damage control), so put a check next to McCain last November. As far as the social issues - yes, you and I will disagree - I am pro-gun, and pro-death penalty, but am also pro-choice.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Not quite Libertarian either
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Date:
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9/10/2009 1:03:11 PM
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Well I am pro-gun and pro life. On the issue of the death penalty I used to be for it but was convinced by Pope John Paul II that it is wrong for the U.S. But I think the argument for the death penalty is principled and in many ways makes sense. I was just convinced that he was right on this issue.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Not quite Libertarian either
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Date:
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9/10/2009 1:32:36 PM
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-WEll, ..looks like we're al baring our souls.
-MM stays consistent with his claim of straight-down-the-line conservatism. But MM, are you straight-down-the-line Republican Party? ...just being nosey here, I'm just not sure I've heard you say that or not.
-So MM, Lover, and I: (1) agree on pro-gun issues, --let's go shooting; (2) are mixed on the death penalty, with Lover for it, MM not really sure (unlike his usual clarity about core values), and I am for the death penalty ,...BUT only when it is absolutely clear that the person charged did teh murder, --for me that means at least two eye witnesses. I've come to this comclusion based on all teh reversals due to DNA testing (MM, does that mean I'm again a wishy-washy independent on this issue?), (3) MM and I are anti-abortion while Lover is pro-abortion.
-So even this little group which would probably call itself more right-than-left, more conservative-than-liberal, have a lot of disparity. MM, are you the clear thinker here, and Lover and I confused, ...or ...are we all clear thinkers, --just having different views?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Not quite Libertarian either
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Date:
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9/10/2009 3:27:27 PM
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Answers below.
"-MM stays consistent with his claim of straight-down-the-line conservatism. But MM, are you straight-down-the-line Republican Party? ...just being nosey here, I'm just not sure I've heard you say that or not."
Answer: for better or worse we have a two party system in this country and unlike those that go the 3rd party route I am simply unwilling to waste my vote on someone with no hope of winning, especially when it will result in someone much worse ending up in office. So I vote Republican because while the party is not perfect, it is much closer to what I believe than any Democrat. Of course I live in Cobb County, Georgia and Tom Price is my congressman and he is a pretty good guy. Our Senators (Chambliss and Isakson) get my vote but not easily. I held my nose and voted for McCain although he was not my primary choice, Romney was.
-So MM, Lover, and I: (1) agree on pro-gun issues, --let's go shooting; (2) are mixed on the death penalty, with Lover for it, MM not really sure (unlike his usual clarity about core values), and I am for the death penalty ,...BUT only when it is absolutely clear that the person charged did teh murder, --for me that means at least two eye witnesses. I've come to this comclusion based on all teh reversals due to DNA testing (MM, does that mean I'm again a wishy-washy independent on this issue?), (3) MM and I are anti-abortion while Lover is pro-abortion.
Answer: There is no lack of clarity on the death penalty, I oppose it in the U.S. at this moment (see my answer below for more explanation). What I was trying to point out is that while I oppose it I believe those that are for the death penalty have a principled, reasonable argument. I would expand my views to being "pro life" (versus anti-abortion) which means from conception to natural death. Abortion is just one anti-life issues while there are many others as well. I also oppose contraception but that would take a lot of explaining for you to understand how that is a pro life issue as well.
-So even this little group which would probably call itself more right-than-left, more conservative-than-liberal, have a lot of disparity. MM, are you the clear thinker here, and Lover and I confused, ...or ...are we all clear thinkers, --just having different views?
Answer: Actually my conservative principals are very well founded and you probably misunderstand my views on the death penalty and are trying to spin that as my taking a more liberal stance. So let me explain with more clarity. I oppose the death penalty for the U.S. today, not the morality of the concept of the death penalty. From a broadly moral perspective the death penalty can be acceptable under certain circumstances. I have come to believe that to date those circumstances do not exist in the U.S. It would take a lot of time to explain why it is not acceptable in the U.S. today but suffice it to say that were those circumstances changed then I would once agree that it is morally correct. On fiscal and other social issues I am a died in the wool, down the line conservative as defined by the modern conservative movement. No lack of clarity of fogginess there.....
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