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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
New Obama Military Order
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Date:
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10/7/2009 5:12:40 PM
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"Shut Up and Salute"
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I'm guessing you have never served in the military. "shut up and salute" is pretty much the way the military works. There may be discussion before the leadership makes it's decision, but once the decision is made, one is expected to carry it out.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Hound, you are just wrong
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Date:
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10/7/2009 9:22:29 PM
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Because I was in the military, in fact a senior commander and was ordered to bomb a target that my guys said would kill innocents.. I said no and elevated it above the one star, and told him to fire me.. the bombers were not launching that night.. so don't give me that crap about saluting the orders and doing it... Your are just wrong..
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Hound, you are just wrong
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Date:
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10/7/2009 9:22:30 PM
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Because I was in the military, in fact a senior commander and was ordered to bomb a target that my guys said would kill innocents.. I said no and elevated it above the one star, and told him to fire me.. the bombers were not launching that night.. so don't give me that crap about saluting the orders and doing it... Your are just wrong..
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Huh?
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Date:
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10/7/2009 10:12:48 PM
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In this case the decision has not been made. There is a fine line between insubordination and true patriotism.
I served 22 years in the Air Force and never once did I feel that I was in a "shut up and salute" organization. On the contrary, leaders were held accountable for their decisions and expected to work as a team - to include valuing the input of subordinates.
I know you were associated with the military, but did you serve? Have you been in the shoes of the general in Afghanistan?
The fact that it is taking so long for Obama to decide what to do makes one thing perfectly clear: He doesn't have a clue.
How low can we go....a Chicago politician with zero military and international relations experience using OJT to decide what to do - and taking far too long to do it. Can't his teleprompter tell him what to do?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
Huh?
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Date:
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10/7/2009 10:31:23 PM
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TH
I know that you are familiar with the Nuremberg Trials after WWII? German military leaders were executed even though their defense was that they were "following orders".
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Hound knows all
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Date:
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10/7/2009 10:55:26 PM
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She was a gs5 @DoD.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Huh?
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Date:
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10/8/2009 8:48:27 AM
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Asked my brother about this comment as he is retired military (20 years in the Navy from Vietnam era and on) and he just laughed. He said it was a typical response from a civilian gov't employee/congressional staffer/politician type. Said they don't know crap about how it really works. There is always give and take and he said the best commanders he worked with asked his subordinates what they thought and yes, once the order was issued and as long as it wasn't illegal you were expected to carry it out. If it was just plain wrong they ran it up the command chain.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Huh?
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Date:
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10/8/2009 5:35:40 PM
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-Well, it seems like a lot of people on this forum have spent alot of time in the military. With my 28 years in uniform, I guess I can join the club and add my 2 cents.
-Hound has it right in theory: A lot of people get a say in the development of a decision, but once it's made then everyone helps execute it. That's what they teach in the service schools. I found out that this "participate-execute" system works out pretty well in most circumstances. I also found that when there is a problem, it's usually because not enough people were involved in the development of the decision. When a commander makes a decision without the input of his staff and subordinates, he/she takes a big chance. Of course sometimes, it has to be done that way.
-Now for some applications of teh school solution:
---the lower down the chain you are, the less ability you have to "openly" challenge the decision. To "openly" defy your superior officer is done at great peril. But ask any sargeant, if he/she doesn't want to execute, they find a way.
---The Pentagon: in the pentagon, usually the school model works well, because usually there is enough time to coordinate with all the people involved. And if you don't coordinate, you learn fast that your project is going nowhere. On most issues majors and LtCol's run the Pentagon; they write the issue papers; they form the generals' (1 and 2 stars) views. They execute the project. Now, The 3- and 4-star generals work in the world of resources and politics---it's really tough in those decision meetings.
-At military posts and in training: at military training posts throughout the country, the school solution again works well. Usually because everyone knows the training scenarios and what's expected before they go to the field. You disobey orders at great peril on a training post, ---except for training safety issues..
-In war zones: the school decision process usually works, BUT NOT ALWAYS. Sometimes it doesn't work because there just is not enough time to run things up and down command chains for input. BUT also, because in war planning, bad decisions lead to dead soldiers. As a result, junioir officers sometimes have to disobey an order, or "reinterpret" the order. In doesn't happen alot, but in three combat tours, I've seen it happen about 6 times.
-So for the military decision process, like all complex human processes, there is seldom one right answer.
---Now, for Obama. He's not the first President without military experience to have to make military decisions. But, it's his job. So he better listen to his military leaders for their take on the issue. But their input is just one part of his decision process. His decision is a political-economic-cultural-militery decision. But one thing is certain in my value system, no president should delay the decision for purely political reasons. If he just can't decide yet, that's one thing. BUt if he is stalling his decision for political reasons, then he sholdn't be commander and chief. Cuz such stalling will lead to the unnecessary deaths of his, and our, soldiers.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Sorry guys, you are wrong
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Date:
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10/8/2009 6:16:36 PM
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In the policy world, where this decision still rests, people do listen to input from the field and other experts. But, remember, the general in the field executes the strategy, he doesn't make policy. I see no indication that Obama isn't getting input from his military leadership -- and in fact, that includes a whole lot more people than just one 4 star in Afghanistan. He has his perspective, others have theirs.
Alahusker, I was being a bit faceitous when I said that you have to shut up and salute -- and you know as well as I do, that if you did what you said you did, then you put your career on the line. You must have had some credibility with your boss, and you must have felt passionately.
Yankee is right -- Majors and Lt Col and Col's and senior civilians in the Pentagon prepare papers for the leadership -- to include the Generals. The best staff work is objective and lays out clearly the pros and cons of each possibility. But at the end of the day, you have to make a fully coordinated recommendation. Sometimes over weeks, sometimes in a matter of days, sometimes in a matter of hours.
Of course, smart commanders take input from their subordinates, but at the end of the day, they know that the decision is theirs, and at the end of the day, subordinates know they have to carry out the decision whether they agree with it or not.
But, not every commander appreciates views of his staff that don't coinside with his picture of reality. You may remember Norman Schwartcroft (sp?) who ran the first Gulf War. They didn't call him the Bear because they loved him. And then there was Max Thurman. I had the priviledge of working for Gen Thurman when he was the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army. If you think he loved taking advice from subordinates, think again. Both men have been known to reduce grown men to tears. I could name a few more.
Sorry guys, I totally respect your time in uniform, but I have worked in the field, worked at the Headquarters and worked for the decision makers. Not a brag -- I assure you. Had my butt handed to me a few times too, when the senior leadership didn't like my recommendation. But, that's part of the job.
And Wix, I'm so sorry to diappoint you, but I was NEVER a GS-5. Not that there is anything wrong with GS-5s. But even my Secretary was a GS-8.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Sorry guys, you are wrong
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Date:
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10/8/2009 6:47:54 PM
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????????
Hound, I don't understand. Your subject line says "Sorry guys, you are wrong" but your post says OK guys, you are right."
-The above post were about whether or not military officers/NCOs ever disobey orders. The simple answer is -Yes, they do.
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-They "disobey" at their own peril; they "disregard" at their own peril; they "subvert" at their own peril, --but they do it! --and they do it in a war zone morethan in any other situation.
-Obviously, it's not copmmon, but it happens! --and usually it happens when it should happen, --which says alot about officer/NCO ethincs and training.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Hound
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Date:
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10/8/2009 6:52:27 PM
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I knew you'd brag up. Can't resist, can you?
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Somewhat offended,
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Date:
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10/8/2009 7:41:48 PM
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Somewhat offended,
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Date:
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10/8/2009 8:20:49 PM
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however. Sounded to me you questioned the honesty of my post re. refusing targets during Desert Storm.. Check out the 4300th Bomb Wing (Provisional) during desert shield/storm.. I was in charge, the 'wing king' Based on objective advise of a talented Wing staff, mostly captains, and majors, I refused a TTO (target tasking order) from CENTAF pukes in Ryhad, because it was a bad target of little military value and in a civilian area.. A 1 star called and told me that "TTO" ended with "ORDER." Again refused, was threatened, but supported by the CENTAF/CC months later.. However, never made general.. but I sleep pretty well.
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Not really. I'm retired, so I'm a GS-0 now.
I don't have to "brag up" or "brag down" -- I've had my career, it was what it was, and now I get to enjoy life.
But, I can tell you that I would never be dismissive of someone else's experiences.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Don't be Offended
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Date:
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10/8/2009 8:38:15 PM
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why would I question your honesty? If you said you did it, then I have no reason to believe you didn't. My only comments was that you knew you were taking a risk to your career when you did it. But, good for you if you stood on your principles and lived to tell the tale. I've known a couple of people that did similar things and ended their careers -- and I don't think any of them regretted it.
Alahusker, I always suspected you are a spitfire.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Don't be Offended
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Date:
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10/8/2009 9:02:41 PM
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But you do come across as believing that your experiences are more "right" (as in correct) than others, especially those of us who donned the uniform and gave significant portions of our life to the military.
I, too, worked in the field, worked at Headquarters (Air Staff), and advised senior decision makers. So what? My experiences may well be different than yours - and from your posts were. So please stop talking down to us. I was a lowly bottle-top Colonel when I retired but Alahusker served in a very demanding and responsible position - far more risky personally and professionally than any civilian staff puke job. Your lectures aren't received well at all.
And don't even think about trying to convince us that your job was more demanding and assuming more responsibility than a Wing King. Won't work with this flyboy or just about anyone else who knows how the cow eats the cabbage.
Husker, you should be offended.
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the old "civilian vs. military" argument. As though your uniform mades your experiences somehow more valuable and knowledgable.
Alahusker, you can be offended if you want to or not. It wasn't my intention to offend you, but if you want to be offended, go right ahead.
You guys crack me up -- always getting all puffed up. Someone should stick a pin in you and deflate you once in a while.
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Think what you want. What year did you retire?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Ah yes
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Date:
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10/9/2009 8:13:40 AM
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Likewise. We just could all stand a reality check every now and then - me and you included.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
I think.....
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Date:
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10/9/2009 8:14:54 AM
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you should use said "pin" on yourself Hound. You're really crossing the line here. I tend to trust those that actually served.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Question For You
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Date:
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10/9/2009 8:18:55 AM
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Do you think you know better than Yankee, a 28 year veteran, what goes on in a war zone? Yes or no.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Ah yes
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Date:
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10/9/2009 9:44:07 AM
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Ah yes, we should trust some civilian desk jockey versus those that were actually in the field getting their hands dirty. I am sure you learned all the ins and outs of military service at cocktail parties in DC. It sounds to me like these guys learned it in the field breaking things and killing people.
Hound, I think you are really pushing this too far with those that actually served. I give them 500% more credibility than anything you would write on this issue and 10,000% more credibility to my brother who, like a number of other posters here, gave 20 years of his life to the Navy. And you accuse me of arrogance and condescension.........look in the mirror...
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Whatever you guys..
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Date:
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10/9/2009 7:22:12 PM
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I feel strongly both ways, going to get a Miller lite tocelebrate the Nobel Award and fish in the morning.. Life is tough on the lake..
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