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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 9:12:15 AM
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Well, the immense transfer of wealth from the productive to government employees continues unabated. How do you like that? I remember when my wife worked for USEPA the Fed'l government didn't pay all that well but had good benefits. Now they have both, and at our expense.
Note also the Dem congress has raised the debt ceiling by $1,800,000,000,000.00 So much for the $440B deficit that GW ran. What we are letting them do to our children and grandchildren is disgusting in ways I can't even begin to express. Where are all the hypocrite liberals, independents and moderates that decried Bush's spending?!?! Either hiding in shame or living joyfully with their hypocrisy.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 10:28:04 AM
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Also, those making six figure salaries has jumped from 14% to 19%.
URL: http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20091211/1afedpay11_st.art.htm?loc=interstitialskip
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 10:30:30 AM
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From the USA Today article:
'When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.'
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 11:59:54 AM
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-Well, USA might have printed that number of over 1600 people making $177,000, ...but I'd be looking for them to print a correction soon, probably on page 99.
-The governemnt Senior Excutive Service (SES) gets itself alot of extra bennies that make the rest of us gag. But the highest SES pay level is $177,000 (although they regul;arly give themseleves bonuses of around $20,000 every year). Usually there is one SES-6 guy/gal at teh top of an agency making that money. Sometimes lower-ranking SES's might also make that much because of step and longevity rules.
-However, I doubt very much that the are now 1600+ more SES-5/6's in Dept of Trans than there were 18 months ago, ---that's even a stretch for this administration of government-job-increasers!!!
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 1:04:45 PM
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Key reasons for the boom in six-figure salaries:
• Pay hikes. Then-president BUSH recommended — and Congress approved — across-the-board raises of 3% in January 2008 and 3.9% in January 2009. President OBAMA has recommended 2% pay raises in January 2010, the SMALLEST since 1975. Most federal workers also get longevity pay hikes — called steps — that average 1.5% per year.
•New pay system. Congress created a new National Security Pay Scale for the Defense Department to reward merit, in addition to the across-the-board increases. The merit raises, which started in January 2008, were larger than expected and rewarded high-ranking employees. In October, Congress voted to end the new pay scale by 2012.
• Paycaps eased. Many top civil servants are prohibited from making more than an agency's leader. But if Congress lifts the boss' salary, others get raises, too. When the Federal Aviation Administration chief's salary rose, nearly 1,700 employees' had their salaries lifted above $170,000, too.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 1:35:20 PM
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AU & GF,
-not to be combative, but i couldn't find anything in my data searches that talk about 1600% increases to the top level of Government pay recipients.
-$177,000 is about what the Congress makes. If there is a 1600% increase in government SES-6's it would seem to me that Congress would be in an uproar.
-Reference FAA pay: FAA has several pay scales because of teh Traffic controllers union, but even the latest payoff to them by teh new pro-labor administration keeps their pay capped at about a GS-15 level, about $120,000. Here's a recent discussion on that:
----"...The mediators ruled that by Jan. 1, 2010, FAA must establish new paybands for air traffic controllers that set the lowest salary for a fully qualified controller at $40,869, and the maximum salary at $114,106. In January 2010, 2011 and 2012, the controllers' base pay will rise 3 percent. In addition, a specific group of 1,440 controllers hired before FAA imposed pay rules in 2006 will be awarded a one-time 8 percent increase in their base pay, though the group will receive the normal pay increases established by the mediators in the future. The ruling also requires a new pay system for trainee controllers..."
-Perhaps you could direct me to the sources of the 1600% increase in the highest government pay levels. I'm truely interested.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Yankee
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Date:
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12/11/2009 2:51:31 PM
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The USA article.
URL: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-12-10-federal-pay-salaries_N.htm
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Every one of your points is wrong despite your source.
Yes, Federal Employees do get steps -- but they don't get a step every year. The way it works is this: Step 1-3 happens every year. Step 4-7 is every 2 years; and Step 7-10 is every 3 years. These are not automatic - a supervisor has to sign off for each step increase and the employee has to receive at least a fully successful rating during the previous rating period.
Yes, Defense did implement NSPS, which did away with Steps and combined paygrades into a pay band. When they consolidated into pay bands, it did raise the ceiling slightly. While I was never a supporter of NSPS, it did allow managers the flexibility of hiring experienced people at the correct salary -- a huge help when one is trying to hire engineers, scientists and systems/computer people, as well as other hard to compete fields. However, NSPS was never fully implemented throughout Defense and now they are in the process of canning it.
Although it was "billed" as "pay for performance", the real reason Rummy pushed for it was as a way to keep career civil servants in line with the Administrations agenda. Political appointees have long complained that career people could slow roll the implementation of certain changes, and they didn't have a way to extract revenge. Under NSPS, if an employee was judged as not contributing to the success of a "mission" they could be more easily terminated (but not after the unions got the through with it); reduced in pay or they could be "rewarded".
While this sounds good on the surface, in practice, it was a scary proposition considering the agenda of some of the political appointees, and it would have provided a damn good way for managers to take revenge on their employees.
As far as the bonus pools, my friends that are under NSPS, have told me that their bonus' are about the same as they were prior to NSPS. In my agency, where the most of the employees were GS-14's and GS-15's, the average yearly performance bonus was about $2500. The Office Directors usually got between $5000-$6000.
Finally, I know of NO provision or rule that says employees salaries must be less than an agency Director's and I can imagine an instance where the employees salary might exceed the agency directors. Most Agency directors are going to be Political Appointees (ScheduleC) or Senior Executives. It is theoretically possible for a top step GS-15 to make more than a newly appointed SES. While it usually doesn't work this way, it could, and there is no law to prevent it.
The FAA may be different because of their Union.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 4:19:53 PM
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You are right about the SES bonus -- my boss got a $23,000 bonus for being in the job half a year. And she was upset because the majority got around $25,000 plus.
However, another man I knew came into the SES ranks from industry where he had been an Executive with one of the large Defense companies -- his previous year (in industry) he got $60K as a bonus. In addition to his regular salary - 6 figures - he got a car allowance, his dues paid at both the Army Navy Club downtown, plus the Army Navy Country Club, and stock options.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 4:28:04 PM
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Is that average based on the "base" table or the locality adjusted table?
I'm providing the URL for the locality adjusted table. As you can see, every major metropolitan area is covered by special locality pay, so I would want to know if that average was based on "base" or "locality adjusted".
URL: http://opm.gov/oca/09tables/pdf/saltbl.pdf
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 4:30:20 PM
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To those who question these numbers...can we not trust USA Today??
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 4:36:03 PM
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I don't really question it, because taking into account all federal employees, it's probably about right. My only real question is what they used as the base.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Avg Fed Pay $71K
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Date:
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12/11/2009 5:01:13 PM
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AU67 and GF,
-Thanks for taking the trouble to provide the link to the USA article.
-However, I must revert to my above comment, --I believe that USA will make some knid of correction. Here's my rationale. The only people who can make that kind of money as government employess are teh Senior Executive Service (SES). As I understand it, there are a little over 8,000 SES's total. SES-5/6's may be a nuumber around 1600 or 1700. So it is possible that government wide, when the pay level was increased, that 1600+ made $177,000. But certainnly, there does not seem to be any way that 1700 people in any one agency reached that number.
-I'll try to contact the USA or the author to find out.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/11/2009 5:16:40 PM
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7.3 million private jobs lost, federal government/public sector jobs and salaries are booming all during the 'worst financial crisis since the great depression'. The people that we sent to Congress now want to increase the Federal debt by $1.8 trillion. Is there something wrong with this picture? My son, daughter and grandchildren can't afford the burden.. I know it, it is Bush's fault..
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Hound
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Date:
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12/11/2009 5:47:49 PM
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I have no knowledge on the subject other than I just posted what I found in the USA Today article as a point of interest.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/11/2009 6:06:32 PM
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-Ala,
-I agree wioth you.
-If I were the prez, I'd have at least a 5% pay reduction of all government employees above the grade of GS-9 for the duration of teh recession. That would bring some pain, but it would be shared. Most could afford it.
-The millitary would get a similar deal, maybe 3% for 0-6's and above. Similar for law enforcement. The lesser cut would reflect appreciation for teh risks they take on our behalf.
-I'd ask the Congress to take a 10% cut.
-As the prex, I'd take a 50% cut.
-Let them lead by example.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/11/2009 7:48:49 PM
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With all due respect, I really don't care about the future of your kids and grandkids. Maybe instead of taking them on expensive vacations, you should save the money and leave them a bigger inheritance that they can live off of. Do you own two homes? Sell one and invest the money for them.
Past generations didn't care about our future, and frankly, I don't see why I need to now. Future generations will find their own way, just like we did.
Oh, and BTW, since the federal government is so offensive to you, maybe you should forego your miiitary retirement. You seem to forget that civilians are the ones that supported you while you were storming about stirring things up.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/11/2009 8:42:28 PM
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What a revealing post!
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/11/2009 9:23:01 PM
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Yup tells me alot.. Apparently Hound has little concern for our next generation, facing this crazy spending in Washington..
Moreover, She seems to have little repect for combat veterans, serving/having served on very difficult deployments away from wives, young sons and daughters.. Been there, did that. So no, after devoting 30 years of my life to the military, and your security, I will not voluntarily give up my retirement, nor my VA disability..
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
And actually,
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Date:
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12/11/2009 9:25:27 PM
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Actually,
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Date:
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12/11/2009 9:39:55 PM
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During the 2 wars I served in, we did not really "storm around and stir things up." We followed orders in good conscience and lived knowing that we were subject to the 'ultimate sacrifice' very possibily on the next mission.. Your post is not typical of the many civilian servants I served with in the field.. Also, not atypical of many career civil servants I dealt with in the Pentagon and MAJCOM HQs.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And actually,
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Date:
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12/11/2009 9:49:05 PM
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No, I don't care about future generations. They will make their way the same way we did. What's the matter, Alahusker? Don't you think it's your obligations to ensure the future of your own family? Isn't that one of the things you are always on here preaching?
Just suggested that since you have such contempt for the civilians that maintained your planes, ensured you had fuel and all the rest that you might have a more respect.
Your service is no greater or less than anyone else who served.
"Time passes away, leaves you with nothing Mister, but bor-ing stories of... Glory Days" -- Bruce Springsteen
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Whoa
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Date:
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12/12/2009 8:30:42 AM
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"Your service is no greater or less than anyone else who served. "
Bull$#!+.
Don't even try to tell me that some desk jockey ordering JP-4 at DLA served equally as a soldier or marine in ground combat or a pilot flying a combat mission with SAMs whizzing about.
All are important to the mission but some do serve greater than others.
Putting one's life on the line in service to our country trumps all.
Hound your incredible jealousy/prejudice against active duty military is clouding your objectivity.
Nasreddin Hodja
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You misunderstood what I said. I said that Alahuskers military service is not greater than others who served -- in the military.
I was not comparing civilian service to military service.
And I don't have contempt for military service, only for those who continually wrap themselves in the flag of their military service. I get a little tired of retired military people who choose to badmouth civilian service, when those very civilians were making sure that they had what they needed.
And my own husband is a disabled veteran, as well as being a retired civlian.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Whoa
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Date:
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12/12/2009 8:54:19 AM
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Just to clear the air, do you consider me to be one of those flag-drapers or one who bad-mouths civil servants?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Whoa
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Date:
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12/12/2009 8:59:01 AM
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And by the way, I, as a retired military person, do believe that those military persons who put their lives at direct risk, like Alahusker, did indeed serve at a greater level than I, who supported them being able to perform their mission, yet was never seriously in harm's way.
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In answer to your first question. Not necessarily. I don't recall you wrapping yourself in the flag.
And there are degrees of risk. I'm thinking that those young people that are out in remote locations in Afghanistan right now, taking hits from the Taliban deserve more credit at the moment than someone in the support area. But, I guess these days it's dangerous no matter where you are. No real "front".
In my years of talking to various military people that I worked with that served in Viet Nam, I've noticed that their war experience is very much dependent on where and when they served.
My father served on a ship in the Pacific during WWII. There were risks, but his weren't the same as someone who participated in D-day.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/12/2009 10:23:50 AM
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Hound wrote: Quote "With all due respect, I really don't care about the future of your kids and grandkids. Maybe instead of taking them on expensive vacations, you should save the money and leave them a bigger inheritance that they can live off of. Do you own two homes? Sell one and invest the money for them." End Quote
I find it very interesting, though not unexpected, that (here I assume) someone who is a retired Federal employee with a spouse that is the same (plus military) believes that it is MY responsibility (note not the goverenment's) to not only provide for my children's retirement, but to continue to pay for their retirement, as well. This from someone who may well have never contributed a single dollar to the federal coffers. [Here I use simple math...if the government pays you $100 and you return $25 the NET result is the government coffer is down $75.] Why is it that those of us that pay for everything...let me say that again...those of us that pay for everything...the tax payer from the PRIVATE sector, that are considered the ones that do not serve our country? Why is the guy who worked dangerous constuction building a house for me to live in safely any less deserving than the Civil Servant who worked in a comfortable office processing a procurement request? I pay the construction worker for their service and that's it; yet I am forced to pay the government worker until they (and spouse) die. Of course, it's only a "socialist" entitlement program when the money is going to someone else, right?
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/12/2009 2:54:30 PM
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4691, you hammered that point home. Thank you for calling it as it is. (although, you may want to be on the lookout for 3 men in an unmarked boat at the end of your slough)
URL: http://www.lakesonline.com/Forum/show.asp?id=103415&fid=6EB63121-22CA-4F54-A718-45B4048F320B&tid=0&SiteID=AL001
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Missing the point guys.
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Date:
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12/12/2009 2:56:32 PM
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OK, so we'll shut down the government for 6 months and see what happens... No military (so no national security), no air traffic controllers (we'll let the pilots do their own thing), no Social security (you can pay for your own elderly), no taxes collected (roads and all the country infrastructure can keep falling apart), no medicare benefits(again, those old people don't need health care), won't build any military equipment (there go some of those jobs), we'll let our industry free flow technology overseas along with the jobs, no DEA, FBI, CIA... well, you get the idea.
And then we'll see how you like living in your country that has no government infrastructure for you to pay for. People that say things like that, have absolutely no idea what people who work for the government do. And that's just fine with me. Ignorance is bliss.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Oh and BTW
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Date:
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12/12/2009 3:01:28 PM
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I probably pay more in taxes on my investment income than you make in a year. Before you start casting aspersions, you should know what you are talking about.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Oh and BTW
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Date:
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12/12/2009 3:21:27 PM
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Hound, I am blissfully ignorant as I wasn't aware that we were so dependant on the role of our central government, or its civilian agents, both active and retired. We must continue to support your listed initiatives, without question, without regard for results, and without accountability because, you have yours, and may even pay more taxes on your investment income than I will on wages. I'm convinced you are a Prius owner, and just run the Nav for cover.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Self reliance
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Date:
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12/12/2009 7:40:22 PM
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is another option.. If the county, state and federal governments shut down for 6 months, or even a year or two, we will be uncomfortable, but ok. Moved into a nice lake house I built 30 years after discovering Lake Martin as a 2nd Lt in 1972. We are comfortable, enjoy the internet and HD TV. My current income is mostly government retirement, VA and Social Security. (Been a home builder post retirement since 1990. Great during the good times, but I never relied on it.) However, I'm seriously concerned with a 12 trillion National debt and think the direction is negative.. Should the system collapse, I hunt, fish and grow stuff.. So we we will be Okay, even without electricity, water and plumbing.. Only problem I see -- my wife doesn't clean fish, or know how to skin a deer.. We will adapt..
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Oh and BTW
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Date:
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12/13/2009 3:57:16 PM
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3 men in a smallish boat came to the end of our slough, peered at the woods with binoculars". This does sound suspicious...". As long as one is not a woman I guess I'll be safe.
Hound - I am happy you are wealthy enough to pay more investment taxes in one year than I earn. You are enjoying the benefits of capitalism so I don't understand your socialist leaning. Even though I am not so rich I have paid a minimum of $50,000 taxes in each of the past 10 years. I fail to see that I recieve now, nor will I recieve in the future, a good return for my contribution.
Now, first off, shutting down the government completely is not a rational argument. You toss this out as a red herring to dodge the question I posed. Even on the local level, stopping all garbage collection can cause serious health issues in a short time. But let's make it a reasonable mental exercise...what if one half of the federal work force (NOT military) was fired across the board, and the half remaining were told to pick up the slack or they would be replaced by new hires from the private sector. Now at the same time, one half of all freight haulers stopped work (people invovled in transporting anything from point a to b). Which would have the biggest impact on our economy? I suspect our opinion on this one would differ.
Hound - My original question that you didn't answer was along the lines of why is the government / federal worker considered so much more valuable to our society than the average worker in the private sector that pays for the services of the government?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 4:14:03 PM
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She just reflects the mentality of a majority of non-military government employees. The proverbial tail wagging the dog, the productive exist to provide manna to the ruling class (civil servants or elected) and they really don't care about what they do to you, your children or your grandchildren. As long as they get theirs the rest of us can eat cake. And who can blame them? Thye get their money at the point of a gun and know we can;t do a thing about it. They don't have to compete in the marketplace, budgets are just numbers on the page and someone else is responsible for gathering up the cash from the cattle.
And they wonder why those of us that can and do make it in the private markets have such disdain for them.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 4:36:12 PM
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MM, I respectfully disagree regarding your characterization of the majority of Government workers. My customers are Government Civil Servants, and in my military days I dealt with quite a few as well. Your characterization isn't what I have observed.
The military person who shows disdain for civilians may have had some bad experiences, and there are definitely a group of them that fit the definition of the Civil Service Rocket: It won't work because you can't fire it.
But I have had the pleasure of working with many, many hard working, dedicated, professional civil servants in the field who epitomize the mission-oriented attitudes we need to have. Please give them their just due.
Will it ever stop raining (in '07 I didn't think I'd ever get to 8itch about too much rain ever again!)
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 6:11:51 PM
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Maybe too much of a generalization but I have worked with hundreds of government workers (mostly with USEPA and state agencies) and her self-centered view of the world is pretty typical. Maybe its a symptom of the baby boomers and they are the ones that dominate government right now. Who knows but your word of caution is well taken.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 6:45:41 PM
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I will admit that most of my dealings have been with DoD civilians. Possibly they are the exception because of the type of business we are in.
We did do some work for DHHS a few years back and the one observation I came away with was that the first consideration on ANY action was political, the second what was good for the mission. We also did some work for TSA and while political considerations might not have been paramount, they definitely played a large role. Kinda hard for old military guys to fathom...or accept.
Cheers,
NH
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 8:24:19 PM
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I was a DoD civilian and worked jowl to jowl with military people almost every day of my career. Shared office space with them. Counted them among my friends.
MM, I am not sure who these government civilians are that you have been working with. But, I will tell you this -- it is not the job of the government to do industry's bidding or to rubber stamp every industry wants to do, so maybe the reluctance you see on their part has more to do with your expectations than their personal attributes. I have been called names by industry people who felt that their failure to plan should be my crisis. I've also been called names when I told industry people that what they wanted to do wasn't going to happen. Because my job was to consider the long term national security of the US -- not the short term goals of industry.
But, I have also spent months working with industry when they approached the government with an objective that could be implemented in a way that benefited the company, benefitted their customer and didn't hurt national security. Was it a painless process? NO. But, we got through it and I think there was a lot of respect on both sides when we were done. That may not mean much to you and to others on this forum, but it meant a lot to those who benefited.
So it really irks me to hear someone like you bad mouth the very thing that I, and my colleagues gave our blood and sweat to accomplish, not just one year, but year in and year out. You have no idea about the challenges that are faced and overcome. People in government service truly believe in our country, so we serve it, and endure the scorn of those such as yourself and others on this board, that just don't understand it.
As far as my "socialist" leanings -- well, you don't know me at all. You couldn't spot me in a crowd. So before you go calling me names and telling me about my leanings, I suggest you find out who I am and spend some time talking to me.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound
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Date:
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12/13/2009 8:39:48 PM
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I said "socailist" leaning based on the thread about New Orleans where it seemed that you believed it my (the average citizen) responsiblity, enforced by the govenment, to pay to rebuild the houses of people who voluntarily chose to live at sea without insurance. That is socialism; not christian charity.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound --- I don't
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Date:
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12/13/2009 9:33:02 PM
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Back to the my original question about the worth of a government worker versus the private sector worker. I mean this from a purely financial perspective with no attack on the generalized characterization of either worker. I asked this because this thread pointed out the $71K average salary of the government worker. Add the $26K average benefits packsage (from an earlier article compared to ~$12 for a priviate sector worker if I recall correctly), so now we are paying on average ~$97K per year per worker. This may very well mean that the best jobs in our encomony are in the government. Is this a milestone on the path to socialism? The government ranks and salaries swell all the while the private sector shrinks and suffers reduced wages and benefits. Even if you believe in the Keynesian economic theory and the multiplication effect of large government spending, without the private sector, the number of rounds is not self-sustaining. The government will simply go broke, probably with spiraling inflation caused by contining to print more money as their supply depletes. In the end it is only the government revenue generated from the private sector that allows the cycle to continue. So even in the big government model I believe it is the private sector which is more important than the govenment. Yet our current economic reward system has now clearly chosen the government worker as the most valuable. The irony, as I pointed out somewhere back in this thread, is that it is the private sector worker that pays for it; literally. Just FYI - I don't buy fully into the Keynesian economic theory but it makes for good discussion based on the current Administration and Congress approach that we can tax and spend our way out of debt.
My apologies for the long post...
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Let's cool it.
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Date:
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12/13/2009 10:07:59 PM
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GS employees are wonderful fabric of our Federal government and they are critical. I also think that many civil servants work without understanding that uniformed military live knowing that mission is ultimate. For example, preparing for a combat mission, may require 24-36 hours by an E-4 crew chief on the flight line.. Maybe -20 or +110 degrees.. He/she does not complain, but expects that we, the flight suit guys, fly a successful mission and treat thier jets with respect.. It's the selflessness and dedication and of the enlisted military that shall ever humble me.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
My, my but arent you cranky
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Date:
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12/13/2009 10:10:51 PM
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First, I told you in my post who I worked with and it is mostly USEPA in DC and the Regions and state personnel in many agencies. I am not asking y'all to rubber stamp anything, just get the he!! out of the way and quit confiscating my money to piss away on your government wasteful spending.
As for your delusions of grandeur I can tell you I am not interested in government telling me what to do or bailing me out and I have no respect for any company that does. Just get out of the way and let us do what we do best. And please spare me with your blood, sweat and tears. You act like working for government is hard..... the only hard part is dealing with civil servants that can't ever be fired or having to cut your budget. How about trying this....not only establish a budget but go out into the competitive marketplace and try to make your numbers without using a gun to get your revenue. That my friend is called blood, sweat and tears. Working for the government, and my wife did it for nine years so I know of what I am speaking, isn't hard duty (military excepted of course).
As for my understanding government that is where you are oh so wrong. I understand government and that is why I have such disdain for it and why I believe it should be limited. As for your socialist leanings, I never accused you of being a socialist and frankly do not think you are one (although Shakespeare might say methinks thou doth protest too much). I think you are a former career civil servant that has nary a clue what it takes to make a buck. I think when you make statements that you don't care what government does to adversely affect our children you perfectly represent the attitudes of many in government and you have earned our disdain in spades.
I have read enough of what you type in this forum to know about your attitude toward us working folks that generate the revenue that gave you your lifestyle in DC and your wonderful retirement and your nice lakehouse.....you have never and will never appreciate what we do every day to generate the income that you live so nicely on. Don't worry, I long ago gave expecting any thanks.....
Tell me Hound, what does government create?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Don't blame Hound --- I don't
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Date:
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12/13/2009 10:17:51 PM
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Again, my point is that government creates nothing. Government is that fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else. As for Mr. Keynes, his basic flaw was he ignored where government gets its money. It either is: 1) removed from the private sector in the form of taxation and is no longer available to be used for productive purposes, 2) they borrow the money from future generations (which they ultimately have to repay it in the form of increased taxation....refer to point 1); or 3) they print it thereby causing hyperinflation. None of these options have ever been or ever will be sustainable. We have tried them all and they have all failed. What we have tried and what works in fueling our economic engine is permanent tax cuts. It has worked every time it has been tried. The statist approach has never worked.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My, my but arent you cranky
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Date:
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12/14/2009 8:36:03 AM
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Yes, I am cranky.
Delusions of grandeur? I don't think so, but then, you probably know more about delusions of grandeur than I do.
I can see the "old" MM is back in all his arrogance. You should bottle that stuff and give it to your friends for Christmas.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
My, my but arent you cranky
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Date:
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12/14/2009 8:52:06 AM
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Maybe we are both cranky but I am not delusional. I know my business and I know government. You know government but since that was your livelihood you have a different perspective. Your comment about not caring what the government does to our children and grandchildren really bothers me. You should thank God your parents weren't that selfish and self centered. Its a sad fact that our children won't be able to call us the greatest generation....more like the most self absorbed generation. How you can call that arrogance is beyond me.....
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I guess I could say that I have faith that future generationa will do better than us, so I don't worry about them. They are the best educated, most advanced generation yet. Most of them knew how to read before they even went to school. They will find their way into the future. They are so smart, it's scary. Change doesn't scare them
It's our generation that needs the help. No, we won't be the "greatest" generation. Our generation could never survive the sacrifices that our parents and grandparents made. We spend all our time analyzing the situation, rather than finding the solutions. We can't help ourselves.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
My, my but arent you cranky
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Date:
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12/14/2009 9:57:11 AM
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You have mail.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
MM
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Date:
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12/14/2009 12:02:51 PM
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Hound, I should clarify that when I speak of our "children and grandchildren" it is really a metaphor for our country as a whole in the future. Don't you agree that we ought to try to leave it in better shape than what was handed to us? I agree that the future generations are going to be well educated and competent but it is my contention that our generation's lack of personal responsibility should not be foisted on them. They will have their own challenges to address without having the added burden of our bad choices.
I guess my view on our generation is not so much that we couldn't make the sacrifices that our parents and grandparents did, it's just that we didn't have to and we are in some ways worse off for the lack of that experience. Not that I want to relive WWII or the Depression. My Mom, who is 79 has assured me we don't want that. I have abundant faith in the American people and believe we can rise to any challenge as long as we maintain our basic American character. That is what bothers me the most about Obama, he does not believe in American exceptionalism while I do in every fiber of my body.
I hope we don't suffer from paralysis by analysis but I fear you may be right. Although at times when I see government's proposed solutions to problems I think back to an attorney that I worked with who liked to say "Don't just do something, stand there!" Sometimes no action is better than bad action. Anyway, enough of my recent rant....sorry to have made you cranky.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Spoken....
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Date:
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12/14/2009 12:45:02 PM
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... like someone who is as clueless about parenthood as they are private sector economics.
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I could agree with you to a point - but I guess it's a question of what we consider problems.
We have an unaffordable health care system. It needs to be fixed. I'm not saying that any of the current solutions that are on the table will fix it, nor am I saying there is some imperative to fix it this year. But, unless something gets done, your future generations will live in a country where the best health care is available, but only if they are wealthy enough to afford it.
Then there is the problem of the economy. I believe that the job situation will abate; maybe not as soon as we would like, but it will. The deficiet? I don't have a problem spending money fixing the infrastructure of the US. The wars that we think are so important to our national security? Well, they cost money.
Diplomacy costs money. Being who we are in the world costs money.
I want to make America better for Americans. I hate pork barrel politics. But no one in Washington on either side of the aisle seems to be able to help themselves for promoting it. (except John McCain -- it's probably the only issue I agree with him about).
I'm not for a bigger government. I don't want the government running health care. I think the government should do what it does best and that is creating policy and regulatory framework, and then enforcing it.
This country needs to put itself on a budget. But, we won't.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
I'm a worried optimist..
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Date:
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12/14/2009 5:17:25 PM
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My grand kids are very smart, innocent and young; but not sure how they are going to handle the 12 trillion dollar federal debt we are dropping in their laps. If they do, they are smarter than I appreciate. But we have "Hope" on our side, may lack in reason and logic, but we can certainly "Hope." Do you have Grand Kids Hound?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Well said
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Date:
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12/14/2009 5:30:08 PM
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I think you and I agree on the main principals but probably not on the details (i.e., methods and means). I am an optimist about most things except about government (as a whole, not as individuals working there) being able to do much very well. Given that constraint my only viable option is for government to be as small as possible, especially on the federal side. In fact, our national defense (where you worked) is one area where our federal government has on the whole done a pretty good job.
Believe me, I pay enough in taxes to want government to operate well and efficiently. I am just of the opinion that the nature of the beast prevents that at the federal level for most areas where they exist. That is why I want it to be as close as possible to the people it serves and the federal government really needs to focus on only a few things it can do reasonably well. All else should be left to state and local government and the people. Sadly that train left the station in the 1930's and except for a few lurches here and there has continued relatively unabated.
Glad we stopped fighting.....I much prefer spirited debates on the issues and enjoy your posts, except the ones that turn on my arrogance machine. :-)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I'm a worried optimist..
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Date:
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12/14/2009 9:35:21 PM
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No children, no grandchildren. But, I have a niece who is 11, as well as two other nieces and nephews in their 20's.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I agree
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Date:
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12/14/2009 9:44:38 PM
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that the State and Local governments are closest to the source and should be able to manage things better than the Federal government. But, I'm appalled at the amount of corruption at the State and Local levels. Now, I'm not saying there is no corruption at the Federal levels, particularly on the Hill, but every place I have lived, it's been the same with the State and local governments. And increasingly, elected officials at the local level of bankrupting the cities they are supposed to be managing. Their business practices are shockingly incompetent. and just when it seems like someone competent gets elected and will straighten things out -- they are either forced out by the corrupt or they themselves have become corrupt.
In VA, our HOA did 3 rounds of battle with the board of supervisors, over development of lands that had been designated for recreation. We won one, we lost one, and we got concessions on the 3rd. But a small HOA does not have the resouces to fight a $$$ developer. As a result, my former county will, in the end, just be one sub-division after another.
One thing I am optimistic about is that my friend was just elected to the VA state legislator. I know what kind of persons he and his wife are, so maybe it's the small start to a trend.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Hound, you are a confident
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Date:
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12/14/2009 10:14:09 PM
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accomplished women.. we disagree alot, but we suspect we would enjoy a casual beer together along with our spouses.
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We don't always agree, but I'd enjoy meeting you. I'll bet you have some great stories!
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Yup!
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Date:
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12/15/2009 8:36:08 AM
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Yup!
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Date:
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12/15/2009 8:36:12 AM
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
!@#$
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Date:
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12/15/2009 8:39:42 AM
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Obviously it is too early for me to try to be posting.
Come on, now. It is much more entertaining for you to be at each others' throats!
:>)
NH
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Aw, stick your head in the purple waterfountain... :-)
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
!@#$
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Date:
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12/15/2009 4:53:07 PM
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Touche'
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Hound,
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Date:
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12/15/2009 6:29:22 PM
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You can't stick your head in the purple water fountain, is was a bowl thing, with a spigot in the middle and was never operative for the 3+ years of pergatory I spent in the basement.. (circa, late 40's fountain, I would guess.) Hound had an office in 3C something which means she had a window. BF-977A translates to basement, F ring (yes there is a ring beyond E ring, but it's below ground), 9th corridor.. however, it was convienient to the POAC, which was good.. I once relieved my self next to the SECDEF in adjacent urinals.. Neither of us were impressed. I suspect that Mr Hodja visited, Top Secret, codeword SCIF (and I forget what SCIF stands for? Good grief!))
scCiffacility with a secure phones.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hound,
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Date:
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12/15/2009 10:23:04 PM
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I actually knew that. In fact, the last time I saw it, I believe it had been turned into a display.
I don't remember what the SCIF stands for either, although I did go there -- you had to have a separate pass to go in. I used to hate it when things were in the basement, because it was so easy to get lost when you didn't work down there. I remember using a conference space that was on the "mezzanine" -- you went through the basement and up a short flight of metal stairs. I was lucky to find it once, and doubt I could have found it again.
Don't miss that place at all. LOL, my feet hurt just thinking about it. Did you know that after 9/11, they put in two major escalators in the building that actually work all the time? And they closed the indoor metro escalator entrance that used to go to the concourse.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Hound,
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Date:
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12/16/2009 12:11:23 AM
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For the record, Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility.
Hound, you can't get lost in the basement as long as you remember how to get back to the PWF!!
Isn't the NMCC on the mezzanine level?
Last time I visited the five sided funny farm they had chopped the upper levels up so badly that I couldn't figure out how to get to my office that I had occupied every day for four years - 5B530 - three different office symbols, same job, same desk, the only thing that changed was the latest general's idea about how the Air Staff should be organized.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
NMCC
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Date:
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12/16/2009 12:20:02 PM
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was indeed up one level, but the Air Force Operations Center was in the basement along with the USAF Director of Operations (AF/XOO.) -- a "2 button"
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
NMCC
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Date:
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12/16/2009 5:54:43 PM
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YGTBSM!
LOL
Sign on an Action Officer's Desk in 5B531: "Eschew Obfuscation".
Husker, my counterpart in the basement was XOOCE...actually a Det of the 2045 Comm Group, but responsible for most of the AF comms in the building.
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